What defines a "cave"?

[Cave Diver]

The place I'm talking about is about 20' underwater, is illuminated by overhead and underwater artifical lighting, no decompression required, and divers can pass through side by side, and has greater visibility than 40'.

If the artificial lights went out, would you be able to see direct sunlight?

 

[SoccerJeni]

Not sure if you mean 'artificial overhead and artificial underwater lighting', or 'natural overhead and artificial underwater lighting'?

Either way, it could still 'become' a cave (if it doesn't meet the definition already) due to silting, sunset, cloud or other obscuring of the natural light (if there is natural light to start with)

Both are artificial. No sunlight is visible. There are a lot of lights mounted above water and underwater.

 

[Cave Diver]

Both are artificial. No sunlight is visible.

Then I would call it a cave.

 

[PfcAJ]

Not being able to see isn't the only hazard of cave diving.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have no question as to what is and is not a cave. I also know that I am neither cave nor cavern trained. I prefer wrecks. Both overheads and yet both with unique characteristics. I would not enter either without training and experience for them. I do wreck penetration and want to do more extensive ones. I heard a NAUI Cave Instructor Trainer say wrecks are inherently more dangerous but somehow they are more to my liking.

Cost would not be a factor.

The quality and comprehensiveness of the course would be first. Then the availability of that instruction to me, followed by the skill, attitude, and even personality of the instructor. I have met some very experienced instructors who likely offer a great course in either but I found them somewhat abrasive TO ME. This past weekend I had a couple conversations with Steve Lewis. I'd take any class, any time, from him. His skill and knowledge are well known. But what also impressed me was his attitude. He is a fun guy. Wish we could have talked more but it was a busy show. Cost of a course is one of the last things I'd consider after looking at all of the above.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

To me this is simple, what is your life worth?

Man that's too bad...$400....I would have guessed higher

 

[Dive-aholic]

The place I'm talking about is about 20' underwater, is illuminated by overhead and underwater artifical lighting, no decompression required, and divers can pass through side by side, and has greater visibility than 40'. I'm trying to keep this generic as possible. I don't want to stir any pots. I'm just curious for my own knowledge, as I find it's important for me to have as much info as possible about where I go diving and to be safe.

According to GUE this would not be a Cave. So I'm unsure if this would need additional training or not.

It doesn't matter whether it's a cave or not. It's an overhead environment, and that does require additional training. Any environment/situation that does not allow direct access to the surface requires additional training.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

It doesn't matter whether it's a cave or not. It's an overhead environment, and that does require additional training. Any environment/situation that does not allow direct access to the surface requires additional training.

I think people will respect me more if I level with them. I tell my students the truth from what I've seen. Then when they see OW divers making guided overhead dive tours they think, "yep, our instructor was right" rather than shaking their head while looking at the sky.

Perhaps following the briefing and following the guide is sometimes all the additional training necessary. The following words are on target with regards to reality, IMHO.

I think it is the general position of the agencies that teach diving, whether it's open water or cavern/cave, that untrained people should not be in overhead environments. Certain very well defined exceptions are tolerated. The cenote tours are one of those exceptions, as are dives like the Cathedrals.

 

[kanonfodr]

I think people will respect me more if I level with them. I tell my students the truth from what I've seen. Then when they see OW divers making guided overhead dive tours they think, "yep, our instructor was right" rather than shaking their head while looking at the sky.

Perhaps following the briefing and following the guide is sometimes all the additional training necessary. The following words are on target with regards to reality, IMHO.

This is one of the few times I am inclined to agree with Halemano. Oahu dive sites like Sea Cave, Makaha Caverns, and some of the lava tubes at Shark's Cove, while technically Overhead Environments, don't concern me as much by the lack of dead scuba divers in those places. However, judging by cave videos and my own personal experiences I consider those "caves" much more benign than the freshwater caves of Florida (which dead bodies are pulled out of with far too much frequency IMO). And yes, I've gotten a little messed up in the Oahu lava tubes a few times with the firm belief that, had those places been less benign, it's very possible I wouldn't be posting this little nugget right now.

Now that I am on the mainland I intend to take proper cave training (it's just a matter of money... ) from a knowledgeable instructor so that I can safely enjoy diving those overhead environments.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Dive-aholic]

I think people will respect me more if I level with them. I tell my students the truth from what I've seen. Then when they see OW divers making guided overhead dive tours they think, "yep, our instructor was right" rather than shaking their head while looking at the sky.

Perhaps following the briefing and following the guide is sometimes all the additional training necessary. The following words are on target with regards to reality, IMHO.

So in your opinion, it's perfectly okay for a brand new OW diver to go into overhead environments with absolutely no training beyond OW class?