Well this sucks.

[Storker]

Wow--I was completely unaware of that. Then the covid vaccine is different in this respect from the vaccines most of us are familiar with, such as flu, for example

There seems to be some indications that some of the vaccines may suppress morbidity, but you're still contagious. Like other asymptomatic spreaders.

That's concerning, but the jury is still out on that topic. Me, I'll withhold judgement until we have solid data. In any case, even a vaccine that turns you into an asymptomatic spreader is a huge improvement over the current situation. At least if society is willing to distribute the vaccine to anyone, irrespective of socioeconomic status.

 

[rmssetc]

Wow--I was completely unaware of that. Then the covid vaccine is different in this respect from the vaccines most of us are familiar with, such as flu, for example?

I'm not a doctor, and I don't know whether the flu vaccine actually prevents infection or prevents symptoms...but I think it's the latter.

I may have misunderstood, but I recall talk of something along the lines of a covid "vaccination passport" that would clear a person for travel. (Or if one has had covid and recovered, an "immunity passport.") But if vaccination (or infection and recovery) doesn't prevent you from becoming (re-)infected and transmitting it to others, what would be the point?

I believe there are a couple of benefits...the personal benefit that an individual vaccinated against COVID is less likely to become ill, and the societal benefit that someone who is infected but not ill is less of a direct drain on the medical system and they are less likely to transmit it to others, by having a lower viral load and for a shorter period.

I have one of those Yellow Cards (International Certificate of Vaccination) that I have kept up to date for decades, showing I have been vaccinated against things like Yellow Fever, typhoid, hepatitis, etc. Would covid be inappropriate to include on that kind of certificate because it apparently doesn't protect against me transmitting the virus to others?

Yep, got one of those too.

Personally, I think that showing some form of vaccination passport will become common, and it's not a terrible thing...but the benefits are asymmetric (in favor of the vaccinated person, rather than other people they contact).

 

[scubadada]

Hi @Lorenzoid

The Cayman Islands current plan appears to be to delay opening until at least March, 2021, and to require proof of full vaccination and a negative PCR test on entry. this covers the possibility of asymptomatic shedding of virus in a vaccinated individual. We will learn a lot about vaccination in the next couple of months.

 

[rmssetc]

Hi @Lorenzoid

The Cayman Islands current plan appears to be to delay opening until at least March, 2021, and to require proof of full vaccination and a negative PCR test on entry. this covers the possibility of asymptomatic shedding of virus in a vaccinated individual.

Meaning that March flights to the Caymans will be filled with high-ranking politicians, people over 80 and their medical support staff....virtually the only populations eligible for the vaccination.

I think it would be more accurate to say:

...and to require proof of full vaccination and a negative PCR test on entry. this covers the possibility that the vaccinated individual is an asymptomatic carrier upon arrival.​

The PCR test is easy (I do it ~weekly, as part of a clinical trial). I haven't looked at literature on whether the vaccination (and which one...) will cause false test results.

I'm more concerned about the situation where a vaccinated, COVID-negative individual travels to a place where the vaccination & test rates are lower than "home" and they become infected. The visitor remains asymptomatic, possibly spreading COVID to fellow travelers (see what I did there) and residents.

We will learn a lot about vaccination in the next couple of months.

That may be the most accurate statement in this whole thread!

 

[Storker]

We will learn a lot about vaccination in the next couple of months.

On a completely cynical note, there are some advantages to not being in a risk group and having to wait for the vaccine. When I get the offer, it's been out there for more than a half year, so maybe some of the more rare side effects will have materialized at that time.

Another half year working from home and socially distancing will suck a lot, but I'll be more certain that the vaccine is reasonably safe. If I were 70+ years old, morbidity obese or very prone to being infected, I very well might have looked differently at the issue.

 

[morecowbells]

I believe that you can balance both travel while practicing conscientious Covid prevention measures. I had the vaccine this week(no side effects yet, but I hear the second one is worse), still wear a mask, socially distance, eat outdoors, hand sanitize-you name it. I think the effects of lack of income, in an already impoverished area can be more devastating than the pandemic. I have been incredibly blessed in not worrying if or when my next meal will take place. Couple the lack of physical sustenance with mental health issues is something very few of us have encountered. I am not going to complain or crucify a country enforcing travel bans; however, I feel fully justified in making other arrangements.

 

[Joneill]

I am not a Dr. or public health professional, but I do work at a major hospital and try, as a lay-person, to stay informed about details about the various vaccines.

My understanding is that the current selection of vaccines are [unexpectedly] good at preventing symptoms. In other words, a vaccinated person may carry the virus but they will [probably] not have symptoms of the disease. The vaccines do not prevent infection and do not prevent transmission to others. Given that the vaccines are ~95% effective, that means that approximately 5% of vaccinated people who catch COVID-19 will show signs of the disease, ranging from aching muscles, mild/temporary neurological symptoms to death (2~9% of affected).


I genuinely welcome corrections (preferably with citations) to my understanding stated above.


As divers, we all make risk management decisions. Putting the COVID info into different terms, what is your level of comfort in a scenario where:

• Of 100 dives on a six-pack (ie., close daily exposure outside the water to 6~8 other people for extended periods), would you accept a 5% risk that you would have some type of DCS event, where ~30% of those events require serious medical care and ~5% of those events are fatal?

As someone who's privileged to be healthy, covered by medical insurance, and living in what is nominally a highly developed country, it is likely that I will have access to a vaccine by July. I have much, much less confidence that a vaccine will be as widely available to the people who I'd contact during a dive vacation. This means there's a real chance that I could become infected, be completely asymptomatic, but that my presence would put others around me at risk while I am unaffected. To put this in terms of diving:

• Of 100 dives on a six-pack, would you consider it an acceptable risk that your diving causes someone else a 5% chance of a DCS event while you have no symptoms?

Wow--I was completely unaware of that. Then the covid vaccine is different in this respect from the vaccines most of us are familiar with, such as flu, for example?

I may have misunderstood, but I recall talk of something along the lines of a covid "vaccination passport" that would clear a person for travel. (Or if one has had covid and recovered, an "immunity passport.") But if vaccination (or infection and recovery) doesn't prevent you from becoming (re-)infected and transmitting it to others, what would be the point?

I have one of those Yellow Cards (International Certificate of Vaccination) that I have kept up to date for decades, showing I have been vaccinated against things like Yellow Fever, typhoid, hepatitis, etc. Would covid be inappropriate to include on that kind of certificate because it apparently doesn't protect against me transmitting the virus to others?

We actually don't know that the vaccines don't also help prevent transmission yet - the studies to date did not determine that but it is entirely possible that they do. It will require more time and possibly more studies to understand that.

Vaccines stop COVID-19 symptoms, but do they stop transmission?

 

[lmorin]

We actually don't know that the vaccines don't also help prevent transmission yet - the studies to date did not determine that but it is entirely possible that they do. It will require more time and possibly more studies to understand that.

Vaccines stop COVID-19 symptoms, but do they stop transmission?

[above bolded text] Agreed. Everything I have read indicates that it is theoretically possible to become infected and a carrier, but not be sick because symptoms are blocked by the vaccinated immune system. One article went so far as to say there are examples of such, but did not give any. FWIW, I have never heard of a case in which a healthy individual who has received the standard vaccinations subsequently becomes infected and subsequently infects other individuals. Personally, I think there has been a somewhat unbalanced discussion of this issue.