Weighting,Stupid Question !!!!

[Soggy]

MANTRA: commonly repeated word or phrase:


I rest my case. Ya'll are repeating the same thing rather than thinking out the probabilities of the situation. WHY are you arguing that a situation where you might have to ditch a weight in a life threatening situation is unsound?

FYI, I have firmly believed this since like 10 dives in after my first OW class before I ever had heard of DIR, seen a backplate, etc....because *I thought it through*. I haven't attacked *ANYONE.* I've simply explained my position and you are getting all offended because you can't defend yours in a way that works within the framework of a team dive.

Would you ditch your weightbelt if you felt you were getting ready to oxtox?

The main problem is this...some people just don't 'get' the concept of a team approach to diving. That's fine.

And yes, I have been on dives with people that swim off, go to grab the big lobster...all of those dives have been in very shallow water where, if I can't get to my 'buddy', then I can swim to the surface *easily* on a single breath or less. I don't dive with people that are going to disappear on me a second time.

They are looking for guidance and they deserve it. Or perhaps, it is you, who could had learned from the experience he took the time to write about.

I am very glad he shared the experience, but I can also say that there were a ton of things going on that would have either prevented me from getting in the water that day and another bunch of things I would have never done underwater.

Let just agree to disagree. Safe Diving!

Agreed...

 

[Soggy]

Situation (and this may not be a realistic scenario, it's just a question that came to mind..).. Not OOA, but being tangled in fishing line or something and having to extricate yourself by way of removing your gear and weight belt. How much more difficult is having the wb under or over..

Getting tangled up is a very real situation that would be resolved by the team. Your buddy would give you the 'hold' command and you would wait patiently while the team fixed your problem and cut you free.

 

[Soggy]

A lot of people keep using the phrase, "..if you lose your buddy..."

On any 'big' dive, most people who subscribe to this philosophy will be diving in a 3 man team for several reasons. The concept of losing your buddy becomes non-issue then, as you have 2 buddies.

 

[Nomaster]

Thanks,
I think you guys handled this better than in some other threads I've read. But, I now consider the notion, that we from the outside, need a way to discuss with you on the inside, without appearing to invade your community when we in our darkness find things you say incredible.
As one contributor mentioned, and was well answered, nubs come in looking for gospel and don't consider the fact that they should not be trying these things at home without proper adult supervision. Probably the ScubaBoard caveat "should" be enough to warn people to learn from these postings with care, but... I sometimes get the uneasy feeling that not everyone reads or understands such traffic warnings.
Most likely I'm just too nervous, ScubaBoard people are a little smarter than your average bears.
But back to my original thought; how do we engage you in discussion without feeling that we are invading your sanctum sanctorum?

Tom

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

I think it is an excellent idea to try swimming up the weight your carrying. In the case of doubles it seems you don't have the option to ditch anyhow.


SAY WHAT!? This is what I mean.....this guy thinks you can't have an option to ditch if you're wearing doubles????

 

[Soggy]

I think it is an excellent idea to try swimming up the weight your carrying. In the case of doubles it seems you don't have the option to ditch anyhow.

Yes, it is a good idea to try swimming up your rig. Diving a balanced rig is the premise behind not needing to ditch weight.

SAY WHAT!? This is what I mean.....this guy thinks you can't have an option to ditch if you're wearing doubles????

You probably don't. A lot of people don't require weight with doubles. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, though.

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

"Probably"?...not definite, "possibly".....? yes there are people who wear weights with doubles. I'm not being sarcastic. Overweighting is something some divers do and feel it's necessary for the kind of diving they do...You're saying a lot of people DON'T require weights...but a lot of people do. Depends on your suit - 7 mil full suit with hood and gloves...dry suit....you can't say it's this or that..there are too many variables. i would never get on this board and say you must do this or that, no other options....

 

[Soggy]

"Probably"?...not definite, "possibly".....? yes there are people who wear weights with doubles. I'm not being sarcastic. Overweighting is something some divers do and feel it's necessary for the kind of diving they do...

I'd venture to say that those people aren't particularly interested or open to the DIR philosophy then, where diving a balanced rig is a fundamental concern.

You're saying a lot of people DON'T require weights...but a lot of people do. Depends on your suit - 7 mil full suit with hood and gloves...dry suit....you can't say it's this or that..there are too many variables. i would never get on this board and say you must do this or that, no other options....

I simply said that I don't believe there are any situations, diving within a true team framework, where ditching weights is an option. Solo diving, diving steels in a wetsuit, diving with a poorly trained buddy team...those all might someday require a weight ditch. I'm just saying you can avoid the problem entirely by sorting things out before ever getting in the water.

For those that think ditching weights is an important consideration, I'd highly suggest getting a system where you can ditch incrementally (6 lbs here, 6 lbs there) like a harness or an ACB system or something. This will help solve the uncontrolled ascent problem.

My head is getting sore from banging it against the wall, so I think I'm going to bow out here.

 

[gr8white]

Would you ditch your weightbelt if you felt you were getting ready to oxtox?

If I felt I was going to, I would QUICKLY take off my belt, and hold it away from me as I ascend, so that in the event I do pass out, it will fall freely out of my hands allowing me to ascend...perhaps not safely, but nevertheless....alive.

The main problem is this...some people just don't 'get' the concept of a team approach to diving. That's fine.

I always dive with a team...at least a buddy. Herein lies the whole premise of my point. In reading what you say, it sounds to me as if you are placing the safety of your life entirely in the hands of the team concept....Without exception. If you are depending on the Team to take care of every contingency, then you have failed to plan for the worst contingency possible: Losing your team in an accident situation. Which, by the way, has a higher probability of happening than many of the other contingencies that you train and plan for. I dive OW which brings on a set of conditions that easily can create this situation, even to the best trained team divers. Kelp forests, unexpected surge, unexpected currents, unexpected high surf on exit....whatever. (Notice the emphesis on "unexpected.") The second you enter the water you enter a realm of unexpected events, of which, only so many can be addressed by planning. A split second move even in fairly good viz can find you momentarily separated from visability with the team. Now lets say that split second move was brought on by an emergency situation...perhaps mechanical or even medical (can, and does happen to the best of divers.) You are detached, it takes a few seconds for the team to realize you are not there. Few seconds turn to life threatening seconds and your emergency situation worsens. You now cannot depend on the team. You must depend on yourself. Failing to recognize that the team is a "system" that can fail is incomprehensible. Consider that a team failure has no redundant system in place, other than your own ability to help yourself. Bottom line: There are emergency situations where you may be detached from your team and the only life saving maneuver night be ditch and ascend.

DIR training prepares you to prepare yourself for dealing with all kinds of contingencies. Why ignore this very plausible one? As the old saying goes...S%^T Happens. At least be prepared for it.

I don't dive with people that are going to disappear on me a second time.

I am not concerned about my team losing me. I am concerned about things that could cause me to lose my team...

Recognizing that this is always a possiblity is just responsible diving. Thinking your team will always be there or that you will always be with your team is nice in theory, but for anyone who dives, no matter the philosophy you adhere to, it is only a matter of time before the situation happens to you.

 

[Soggy]

If I felt I was going to, I would QUICKLY take off my belt, and hold it away from me as I ascend, so that in the event I do pass out, it will fall freely out of my hands and I will ascend...perhaps not safely, but nevertheless....alive.

You just committed suicide. During an oxtox convultion, the airway closes. You just guaranteed yourself an embolism. Your buddy, however, could have saved you by keeping a reg in your mouth and waiting the convultion through.

I am not going to respond to the second part of your post as it is obvious we disagree on a fundamental level.

I've also already said that the 'official' DIR stance is to wear a weightbelt on the outside if you're in a wetsuit and on the inside in you're in a drysuit.

Loss of a weightbelt in a wetsuit at depth is less catestrophic, since you've also lost some inherent buoyancy....i.e. you might be able to recover before reaching the critical point where your suit relofts.

The rationale for wearing it inside is that accidental loss of a weightbelt would cause an uncontrolled ascent. I know I've certainly found a few weightbelts at the bottom of the ocean and I doubt they were all removed intentionally. Carry this further on into technical diving where an uncontrolled ascent can mean certain death....another principle in DIR diving is to learn something right the first time, so as you progress, you don't have to 'relearn' anything.

Ok...I'm done for real this time