Weighting,Stupid Question !!!!

[mer]

How about worst case scenerio on the bottom, BC failure and drysuit flooding?

My fundamentals instructor brought this up to me in an adding weight discussion. His opinion was that some of the weight should be ditchable in case of above scenerio.

How much weight should you be able to swim off the bottom with no extra bouyancy help?

In my case with a single AL 80, 6 pound backplate and 6 pound STA, I might need an extra 10 to 12 pounds for a drysuit.

This is where the correct undergarment comes into play. Quality thinsulate, for example, still retains much of its buoyancy when flooded. Fleece and compressable loft undergarments may not retain much, or any, buoyancy.

Also, this is why some GUE instructors advocate seeing if you can swim your doubles to the surface, mostly full, from 40', with the wing and drysuit fully deflated. Some people can swim up 104s, some cannot. In these instances, my instructor has recommended that you only be diving those steel tanks where you can *walk* home (cave, shore, etc).

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

Okay, when I talked about removing the weight belt before boarding the boat, I didn't mean that you would take off only the belt. We surface, remove our weights FIRST and drop them on the dive platform. Then we clip off our BCD and tank to a granny line, slip out of the gear and all we have left are our masks and fins. We're now positive and free of all our gear. It's a lot eaiser to get in the boat. The platforms on the boats we use are usually the "swim" platforms and are not designed to take on a diver in full gear. Plus climbing into a boat, espec if it's rocking and rolling, wearing full gear can cause a fall...back into the water or even into the boat.

Now as far as my friend having 25 lbs of gear hooked to him, it was attached to a d-ring on his weight harness. One of the quick-release catches on the harness was undone when he was found...not the second. My point was if he had been able to undo both, better chance of going positive. I wear a belt, single buckle, quick release...one flip. my belt is gone and anything I had in the goody bag stays with the belt and is not hung on a crotch strap.

On the buddy and the lift bag, you are assuming you will have time to notify your buddy and/or deploy your lift bag...time is running out. Example - you exhale, then go to draw in your next breath and get water instead, you reach for your octopus - same thing. You have no air in your lungs...you think you're going to have time to signal your buddy? Is he close enough, can you even see him due to viz? While you're making contact with him you still have no air...all I'm saying is, if it comes to it - why not be able to go bouyant if you ABSOLUTELY have to....okay, my mistake, this is a DIR forum...just seems to me it's pretty illogical not to cover all the bases. BTW, I don't think I'm being flamed, glad for the discussion....nothing personal, just expressing my opinion and my experience in the kind of diving I do.

 

[Soggy]

You have no air in your lungs...you think you're going to have time to signal your buddy?

Yes...if you've ever dived with a well trained team, you'd know that your buddy is *right there* at all times. I would never be so far away that I couldn't reach my buddy in an OOG emergency. If we were in touch contact, and unexpectedly went OOG (that ain't gonna happen either), I'd just grab the reg out of my buddies mouth. I'm quite sure I'd be able to find his mouth.

FYI, you don't "draw in water" when you take the last breath off of a tank...you just don't get *anything*. Plus, I think I'd know well ahead of time if I was about to take the last breath out of my tank...if I didn't, I shouldn't be diving in the first place. Monitoring your gas supply and planning adequate gas supply to have a safe and slow ascent is a *fundamental skill*.

Problems underwater need to be solved underwater. Taking a rocketship ride to the surface is not an option.

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

excuse me...I'm sorry, but you keep jumping to conclusions about the things I say...I didn't say anything about an out of air situation. Don't you think it's possible to have a catastrophic reg failure that allows water in? All I'm saying is ANYTHING can happen...and you're going to say that if your gear is properly maintained - that kinda stuff won't happen....Can you guarantee that? You're going off on a tangent here...the best case scenario is your partner should be in easy reach...but now you're saying without warning, you would simply reach over and jerk your partners reg out of his mouth...okay, so what if he's inhaling at the time..possible he at least gets a little water in his "inhale"...now you've prob got a choking diver, a problem that YOU caused. I need air I ask, not just grab and jerk.....and in low viz you can possibly dislodge his mask.

All I've been talking about is WHERE to wear weights. Years ago when we used to wear the old horse collars, I watch a guy (weights under the crotch strap) try to drop his belt. We were in Peacock - he was 5 ft from the surface....novice diver undergoing a class....but anyway, all I'm saying is there are a lot of people who come on this board as newbies, read that you should do this or that and do it because they read it here. There are lots of different divers who dive different scenarios. I wouldn't think a DIR diver would ever consider relic diving. All I'm saying is a weight belt under a crotch strap is NOT a good idea if you, for ANY reason had to drop weight...even in 7 ft of water. I'm obviously not encouraging anyone from dropping weight from say 50- 60 ft or more...that would be suicidal.

 

[Soggy]

excuse me...I'm sorry, but you keep jumping to conclusions about the things I say...I didn't say anything about an out of air situation. Don't you think it's possible to have a catastrophic reg failure that allows water in?

A reg failure is the same as an OOA situation and would be handled identically. I would ideally ask for my buddy's reg, but you said I couldn't see him, and as such, would grab the reg out of his mouth. At this point, I obviously need air more than he does and his backup regulator is about 3 inches from his mouth, bungeed around his neck. An OOA situation is not a reason to bolt to the surface.

 

[mer]

but now you're saying without warning, you would simply reach over and jerk your partners reg out of his mouth...okay, so what if he's inhaling at the time..possible he at least gets a little water in his "inhale"

I know my team is trained well enough that if I reg came out of your mouth for *whatever* reason, you would simply stop inhaling. If you do not have good enough reactions with your reg to stop inhaling when you feel water, you might want to rethink your level of participation in this sport. Even if you were at your bottom of your lungs at the time you "lost" a reg (taken by team/malfunction/knocked out), you have enough time (at least 10 seconds) to get your backup, or a team member's long hose.

all I'm saying is there are a lot of people who come on this board as newbies, read that you should do this or that and do it because they read it here.

That is why GUE divers here consistently recommend people take a Fundamentals class *rather than* trying to figure this out on the internet and *before* trying any of this in the water. In lieu of instructor availability, find a GUE-experienced diver in your area to mentor you. Just as an uncertified diver shouldn't learn to dive on SB, or rec diver shouldn't learn how to deco dive on SB.... no one should try to learn a more specific diving philosophy purely online. This forum is a great resource for those considering GUE training or those already on the path looking for some mid-stream advice.

Novizwhiz, I'd love here more about your experience with DIR/GUE and what classes/instructors you've experienced.

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

This is exactly the kind of "discussion" I generally have with DIR divers. There is only one way...okay guys, fine.

A "bolt" to the surface is not what I said BTW -...again putting words in my mouth. MY POINT IS - why do you suggest a diver wear a weight configuration that might foul and cause a problem IF in some far realm of possibilty it does (for some remote reason) become necessary to drop weights? I would assume the DIR way would see this as a possible (no matter how remote) hazard.

 

[Soggy]

A "bolt" to the surface is not what I said BTW -...again putting words in my mouth.

Well, you implied it by suggesting that one should ditch weights. This would result in an out of control ascent.

MY POINT IS - why do you suggest a diver wear a weight configuration that might foul and cause a problem IF in some far realm of possibilty it does (for some remote reason) become necessary to drop weights? I would assume the DIR way would see this as a possible (no matter how remote) hazard.

I believe the 'official' recommendation is wetsuit divers wear the belt outside the crotch strap and drysuit divers wear it underneath.

MY POINT IS that you haven't come up with a single plausible scenario that where ditching weights *underwater* would be the best solution to a problem.

 

[mer]

So, do you have any familiarity with GUE other than what you have read on the internet?

 

[gr8white]

Why would you ever need to ditch weight underwater?

Is this a joke? I could write reason after reason, all of which I would hope I would never see, but God forbid, if the day ever came, I better be able to ditch the weight. Any diver thinking you'd never have to ditch weight and are not prepared for such a contingency is just .... well... nevermind.