Warped View of the Dive World

[MauiScubaSteve]

The vast majority of posts to this thread were adult and on topic. There seem to be some new posters to thought provoking threads lately, and perhaps even some who chose not to post back in Feb who are now less shy ...

First I want to make it perfectly clear; this thread is not intended to be about my view of the Dive World; I want to know your view of the Dive World. How would you describe the World of Diving from your perspective?

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All I really know is 10 years of USA's most popular warm water dive worlds, and my Key Largo dive world experience is a decade old. But I flip through most of the dive magazines, watch nearly everything dive on the TV and at the movies, and spend way too much time cyber diving.

OK, so, on to MY warped view of the dive world

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made in waters 70 degrees F and warmer.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made with Aluminum 80 cubic foot-ish tanks.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made using Vest BC's.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives in the World are made wearing 5 mm or less wet suits.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" first OW courses were "booked" as 3 or 4 day classes.

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made using full foot fins.

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are "guided dives."

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "deep" within their first dozen logged dives. (>100')

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "under rock" within their first dozen logged dives. (Cavern, not arch)

Those last four may very well be due to me living 2 decades in Hawaii. :cool2:

I think the Dive Industry has "evolved" to supply the demand generated by the customers clamoring for the above list.

I think the "fringe" of the Dive World (those not in 70 degree F or warmer water and those not "recreational") contending that the Dive Industry is not supporting their Dive World is like a Lamborghini dealer in Anchorage, Alaska contending that the Auto Industry is not supporting their Auto World.

It would be pretty cool if at least some of the responses followed a similar theme as the list in this post, but I do not require you to respond in any way other than be honest and open about YOUR views of the Dive World &/or the Dive Industry.

 

[danvolker]

The vast majority of posts to this thread were adult and on topic. There seem to be some new posters to thought provoking threads lately, and perhaps even some who chose not to post back in Feb who are now less shy ...

So how about some changes...

80 cu ft al tanks are a mistake in today;s world, where a majority of divers will be using Nitrox, and where "many" will be doing dioves to 100 feet deep----the al 80 does NOT offer sufficient reserve volume for the average diver to dive anywhere near their NDL on a dive using 34% at depths in the vicinity of 100 feet---should their buddy have an OOA emergency, the diver with this tank on this profile is poorly equipped to handle the situation....Back when most divers were AIR divers, the 80's made sense. Today they do NOT.

Most divers use Split fins, and MOST have never learned the proper kicking technique for even a flutter kick. Because the split fin is so soft and "forgiving", little or no instruction is needed to get a new diver to propel themselves with them....While this might seem like a great idea in a large class of new students, in the long term this has had terrible consequences.
Because the split fins are so forgiving, any kind of kick will propel you forward..there is practically no biofeedback the diver can get to show them what works better or worse--so they really have no good way to learn an optimal kicking stroke. Most would not even know what I am talking about...With a jetfin, or with a freedive fin, if you kick incorrectly, you get very bad results...in the long run this is good, because a diver can see that when they do something right, they move BETTER.
They "can" learn that there is an ideal kick turnover for their aerobic condition, one that will create an optimum or good bottom time, and they can learn how much faster they "can" kick ( themselves, not other people), when they have a situation where they need to go quite a bit faster. They can also learn the effects of changing the "SHAPE" of the kick stroke, which can have massive effects with both jetfins and freedive fins, though very little effect with splits. The shape of the kick is a huge epiphany for a diver using freedive fins, as it is actually like a cyclist learning that they have 10 gears or 10 speeds, that they can use--need to use, for getting around optimally...Again, with the splits, the feedback is so poor, few split fin divers ever experience any useful change in fin performance, should they change the shape of their kick stroke.

Divers like this one in the 15 second clip, have entirely the wrong kick shape--they don't know this, and don't care, because the splits allow them to get around.. Diver with skills that split fins were created for...If you swim like this, GET HELP! - YouTube

Unfortunately, they have limited themselves terribly for development as a diver..they will never be able to go fast if they need to --- whether to follow marine life of interest with a camera, or to handle current that navigation or return to the boat mandates.

Divers should be able to go very slow when needed, or to hover motionless--then be able to go fast if there is a need, They should know how to kick without silting, and again, the split fin diver does not typically gain this skill....

So who is at fault? And How do we change this?
I for one, want to do a major fin test, utilizing scubaboard regulars, and expose the splits for the marketing scam by the dive industry that they are.....this scam has hurt dive shops and instructors, every bit as much as it has hurt the divers themselves, in the long run.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Dan, I agree with you about the oversize beer cans that most dive ops favor ... and the reason they're still popular is economics, not practicality ... you can purchase two or three AL80's for what you'd pay for an HP100.

On the split fins, I'll sorta disagree. For the majority of non-tech diving, a properly-used split fin is a reasonable choice, if it suits diver preferences. What you see in the video isn't a deficiency in the fin ... it's a deficiency in training. I have students all the time who start out trying to bicycle kick ... in whatever fin they've chosen to purchase. My most recent student ... who completed her OW class yesterday ... started that way in the pool (in split fins). We worked on it until she corrected the habit ... and she's using the fins just fine now. This is more indicative of skills that aren't on the checklist, and therefore don't get taught because instructors today are conditioned to only teach what's on the checklist. It's not an equipment problem ... it's a problem that stems from allowing people to become instructors before they've truly learned how to dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sambolino44]

I haven't ready anything but the first and last pages here, but I agree with most of the assertions in the "vast majority" post. I don't fit into the vast majority in most cases, being a local cold-water shore diver who dives several times every month and rarely takes a warm water dive trip.

I see the point of the "Alaska Lamborghini owners shouldn't complain" post, but as complaining about any and everything is a major part of my life, I'd never begrudge anyone the "right" to complain about anything. Just know that your complaints may be ignored if they don't have weight. I think the scuba industry has probably not done too bad in responding to the market; the vast majority is served, and the fringes have been able to occasionally get their niche products to market.

As for the side trip about split fins (sigh), I understand why people want a fin that enables them to go fast and far when needed, but I need to swim any distance so rarely it's not the major consideration. What I mean is, I almost always just drift, or swim very slowly. To me how the fin enables me to maneuver is used way more than how efficient the fin is going forward in a straight line. I think my fins are good for both, but my point is I think most people put too much emphasis on forward motion and not enough on control of body position. My experience with split fins is that they are good for going forward (not any better than my FF), but really bad for trying to control your position (for instance, backing away from a wall) or any other maneuver.

As this thread is about a "warped" view of the diving world, I fully understand that my diving experience is pretty far from what most divers' is like. I get the impression that Scubaboard has more members in the "dives more than most people" category than in the "fits right into the mainstream of most divers".

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Dan the split is a very good fin when diving 30# weight belt and two piece wet suit or a dry suit. It is way less on calve muscles, no doubt you can put regular fins or jets and that was done for many years. The currents, twins, etc, if not diving all the time it will be a pain. another is the weight helps for drysuit diving, and I have seen DIR diving with them in the past.

If new divers dive bigger tanks it will increase fatalities, al80 has enough air for rec limit diving to not bend you cause there is only enough air in it for lets say to do a ndl dive plan at the depths and mins it allows. For all divers the bigger cf tanks is for advanced diver, for all reasons, a little deeper, deco, extra air(1/3 reserve) etc.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I haven't ready anything but the first and last pages here, but I agree with most of the assertions in the "vast majority" post. I don't fit into the vast majority in most cases, being a local cold-water shore diver who dives several times every month and rarely takes a warm water dive trip.

I see the point of the "Alaska Lamborghini owners shouldn't complain" post, but as complaining about any and everything is a major part of my life, I'd never begrudge anyone the "right" to complain about anything. Just know that your complaints may be ignored if they don't have weight. I think the scuba industry has probably not done too bad in responding to the market; the vast majority is served, and the fringes have been able to occasionally get their niche products to market.

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As this thread is about a "warped" view of the diving world, I fully understand that my diving experience is pretty far from what most divers' is like. I get the impression that Scubaboard has more members in the "dives more than most people" category than in the "fits right into the mainstream of most divers".

You have chosen well; both in your reading and in your typing.

It is easy to 'get the impression that Scubaboard has more members in the "dives more than most people" category than in the "fits right into the mainstream of most divers"' but I wonder if that is just an "impression."

There are currently 2077 users online. 280 members and 1797 guests
Most users ever online was 3,848, October 16th, 2011 at 05:05 PM.

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Members 195,820

As I type, 13.5% of the people reading ScubaBoard are logged on as members.

That gives me the impression that something like 85% of the people reading our posts are not members.

My premise is that perhaps more people would become members if the environment on SB was more in-line with the way the World dives.

Nearly 200,000 "members" but are there really more than 200 regular participants?

Many of those 200,000 members have left, not logging in for months if not years; SB does not have a procedure for un-membership, they evidently claim you as a member even if you only made one post years ago and never came back.

 

[danvolker]

You have chosen well; both in your reading and in your typing.

It is easy to 'get the impression that Scubaboard has more members in the "dives more than most people" category than in the "fits right into the mainstream of most divers"' but I wonder if that is just an "impression."





As I type, 13.5% of the people reading ScubaBoard are logged on as members.

That gives me the impression that something like 85% of the people reading our posts are not members.

My premise is that perhaps more people would become members if the environment on SB was more in-line with the way the World dives.

My premise would be that a large majority don't post or join because of the obnoxious behavior of 2 dozen or so constant posters.....you know, the ones that nit-pick and pontificate.....the ones that make new posters into "targets".
Some of this may come from too much time on a keyboard.....some of this may come from too much time in Hawaii

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

My premise would be that a large majority don't post or join because of the obnoxious behavior of 2 dozen or so constant posters.....you know, the ones that nit-pick and pontificate.....the ones that make new posters into "targets".
Some of this may come from too much time on a keyboard.....some of this may come from too much time in Hawaii

Dan, my long stated goal is to make SB more popular with the vast majority of divers; please elucidate on this premise of yours. This may not be the "thread evolution" you first requested, but I'm open to this "course change" if you are willing to take us there.

You mention "2 dozen or so constant posters" and I am interested in your entire list ...

Please show some quotes where members behave obnoxiously by nit-picking and pontificating, in your opinion.

Please show some quotes where members behave obnoxiously by making new posters into "targets," again in your opinion.

My current board statistics show me as averaging less than 2.2 posts per day, but my impression is that I am a main subject of your post I quote here.

 

[adurso]

I agree with Dan for the most part; many of those one time posters post a question, get dog piled by the usual suspects, and never return.

Many of those reading do not join and post because they have seen what happens sometimes.
I use the term "usual suspects" loosely, I really pay no attention to the usernames in critical threads.

There was once a list of the most helpful/nicest type people on the board, Bob (NWGreatfuldiver), TSandM and such were on it........I was not.....if more people were like Bob the lurkers would probably come out to play

 

[danvolker]

Dan, my long stated goal is to make SB more popular with the vast majority of divers; please elucidate on this premise of yours. This may not be the "thread evolution" you first requested, but I'm open to this "course change" if you are willing to take us there.

You mention "2 dozen or so constant posters" and I am interested in your entire list ...

Please show some quotes where members behave obnoxiously by nit-picking and pontificating, in your opinion.

Please show some quotes where members behave obnoxiously by making new posters into "targets," again in your opinion.

My current board statistics show me as averaging less than 2.2 posts per day, but my impression is that I am a main subject of your post I quote here.

Halemano....I was needling when I hot-spotted you at the end of my post....I do not believe you ARE the problem....Do you have a place in the most obnoxious top 20 ? You can be pushy and strict about YOUR idea of what people in a thread SHOULD be talking about, to the point of being a bit an@l rententive.... it takes the "fun" out of being in the thread, in the discussion sometimes.....You may fall somewhere in the 10 to 20th position....You don't make things black and white for us, because you actually DO have good quality ideas often, and are a valuable contributor....
I don't want to start naming people for this...most know they have hit people too hard, and think it's funny. If enough other posters agree that a number of posters have been too nasty, that will probably sink in with them.....In your case, I only name you, because I think you will take this as a compliment