Warped View of the Dive World

[MauiScubaSteve]

I hate to see this turn into an attack thread. Personally, I think your perceptions reflect your experiences; my perceptions reflect my experiences and so on.

OK, perhaps one way to resurrect this thread is to force the thread to evolve positively on what has become the negative sticking points; let's expound on the concept of inexperienced &/or rusty divers going on exotic vacation to places with signature dives that are beyond their level of training and experience. :shocked2:

First I want to make it perfectly clear; this thread is still not intended to be about my view of vacation diving; I want to know your view of vacation diving. How will you / would you have, conducted yourself if you get to go to / had gone to, someplace like Maui, with only a few dives under your belt?

The signature dives, the most recommended dives, the best dives of Maui are often purported to be Molokini's Backside and Lanai's Cathedrals. The Backside is a wall dive that has about a 300' bottom; 100-110' is a typical max depth. First Cathedral and Second Cathedral are lava rock caverns where it is typical to spend over 15 minutes inside the fairly large caverns, which have many openings and quite a bit of ambient light.

Perhaps you get really good recommendations, that replace the Backside with the crescent tips of Molokini Crater; Reef's End and Shark Condo's, which may be "best" with max depths of 110' and 120' respectively. Perhaps you don't like long boat rides and make your cavern dive at 5 Caves as a second dive after Molokini.

There are quite a few "Dive Destinations" with somewhat similar advanced signature dives; perhaps Devil's Throat, the Blue Hole and the Cenotes make that list. Inexperienced &/or rusty divers make those dives on a regular basis from what I read. If you don't feel like hypothesizing about Maui, maybe you have other similar dive stories to tell.

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "deep" within their first dozen logged dives (or after a long layoff). (>100')

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "under rock" within their first dozen logged dives (or after a long layoff). (Cavern, not arch)

I do not require you to respond in any way other than be honest and open about YOUR views of vacation diving &/or the vacation dive industry.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

This one is mostly just for the instructors still tuning in:

As an instructor I think it would be wrong to assume that all my OW students will follow the "recommendations" with regards to diving deep or into caverns, so when I am teaching them to dive I make sure all my students have as good a chance as I can give them to make good dives beyond the recommendations, not just enough training to survive those dives.

As an instructor working for dive operators on Maui, I usually have to give students this training in only 24 hours of interacting with them. Depending on the person, some parts of the training might be more emphasized than others, but for the most part if the new OW student really passes something close to true "mastery" of each skill in any agencies Standards, they really should be good to go on instructor guided dives beyond the "agency" recommendations for their experience.

As an instructor not from Maui, with students that might visit a place with signature dives that are deep or cavern before they have very many dives under their belt, how confident are you that they will make good dives when they dive beyond the "agency" recommendations for their experience level?

That is along the lines of what I hoped / expected from the internets best scuba instructors; my intel of the reality in the trenches causing instructors back home at non exotic vacation places to see that their students need to be competent to make these dives beyond the "agency" recommendations, because a lot of them will.

 

[Doc Harry]

Halemano I agree with your views in post #2

 

[robbcayman]

I refuse to dive beyond my comfort level or training. In my opinion, it's a slippery slope that gets a lot of divers in trouble. I always plan on returning home after my travels to new places. I've heard too many stories of guys who go on vacation and decide to penetrate a wreck or cave, because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. These divers know they aren't qualified to do it, but proceed anyways.

A lot of times these divers run into problems and some never come back. I believe life is all about risks, but it's vital to take calculated risks. I understand wanting to take advantage of something you may never get to do again. However, if that something could likely kill you then you better give pause and ask yourself worst case scenario is this worth it. I'm more cautious than most, but I'm also still alive. Those that push the envelope time and time again will often meet a terrible ending. Remember, you only have to be wrong once for everything to end.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am not sure how well this relates to the topic, but I think there might be a point in it somewhere.

As I said earlier, I have dived a whole lot of the popular vacation spots, as you can see in my profile. In planning vacations, I tend to try the new and untried over the familiar.

I have been to the two places in Halemano's experience quite a few times. Our dive shop frequents Key Largo for quick excursions, and I have dived four Hawai'ian islands, if you count Ni'ihau.

On one trip to Maui, I dived with a couple met through SB. They lived in the Pacific Northwest, and had dived nowhere else until a dive vacation in Maui. They thought they had found dive paradise, and they returned every year for their vacations. When they learned how many different places I had been, they asked me if any of them were as good as Maui.

I was frankly stunned by the question, which I found to be a revelation. I told them, as carefully as I could, that I would rank Maui near the bottom of all my dive experiences. Also close to the bottom would be Key Largo.

I would also say they are among the least typical of my experiences.

They were shocked. How could anything be better than Maui? They clearly had a warped view of the dive world, basing their expectations on a very limited set of experiences. I have since noted that tendency among many people on SB who give advice to new divers based on their belief that all diving in the world is similar to their experiences.

I was diving yesterday on a boat that had about 16 people on it. Some were students with instructors, but most were local people out for a dive. I got tanks filled at a local shop the day before and went to the boat where I loaded the gear as everyone else was doing the same. The DM assigned me to a spot and I went about putting my gear together, as did everyone else. I was thinking of this thread as I looked around the boat. Everyone had what looked to me to be at least 5mm suits and hoods. There was one set of split fins and no full foot fins. We were doing two drift dives, and a brief discussion with several sets of divers got me a buddy. He was going to be looking for lobster. I handled the dive flag for both dives, with him unfortunately getting lobster on neither. The wind was up and the boat was pitching in the waves badly. As I was putting on my kit for the second dive, there were people on each shoulder leaning over the rail tossing cookies. When on the surface, we had to keep our eyes on the Portuguese Man 'o Wars floating around.

I had pretty nice dives all told, and the rest of the divers seemed to think the conditions were pretty normal. Although this does not reflect the conditions of the vast majority of the world's dives, I suspect some people would be surprised at how common such dives are.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I refuse to dive beyond my comfort level or training. In my opinion, it's a slippery slope that gets a lot of divers in trouble. I always plan on returning home after my travels to new places. I've heard too many stories of guys who go on vacation and decide to penetrate a wreck or cave, because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. These divers know they aren't qualified to do it, but proceed anyways.

That is good discipline, but I do not think you are getting what I'm asking; I'm talking about dives that are guided by mostly instructors, that are the "signature dives" of a specific exotic destination.

If you don't have the training or experience, to do the dives on your own, why isn't an instructor guided dive an option to getting the experience; do you have to get training in deep &/or cavern to make instructor guided deep or cavern dives?

How many of the "signature dives" in "Exotic Dive Destinations" that are mostly instructor led dives and are beyond the inexperienced &/or rusty vacation diver's qualifications, have "many stories" of tragedy?

 

[eponym]

First I want to make it perfectly clear; this thread is not intended to be about my view of the Dive World; I want to know your view of the Dive World. How would you describe the World of Diving from your perspective?

It would be pretty cool if at least some of the responses followed a similar theme as the list in this post, but I do not require you to respond in any way other than be honest and open about YOUR views of the Dive World &/or the Dive Industry.

This one is mostly just for the instructors still tuning in. As an instructor I think it would be wrong to assume that all my OW students will follow the "recommendations" with regards to diving deep or into caverns, so when I am teaching them to dive I make sure all my students have as good a chance as I can give them to make good dives beyond the recommendations, not just enough training to survive those dives.

As an instructor just tuning in, my view is there are warm-water ops that need severe castigation, and there are parents whom ditto.

Case in point from a few years ago: I train a husband and wife (middle-aged with children) to dive, they do local cold-water checkouts. They start taking cruises which offer a few dive days along the way. They are happy, they are divers. Time passes. The couple bring me their 13-year-old for private OWD training. We do one class and one pool session. Then they are off on another cruise, with their daughter, next class to be held when they return.

When they return they tell me, "The divemasters on the boat were arguing about who would get to take her for a dive." She shows me her log book in which she has recorded her dives, including one to 83 feet. This for a non-certified 13-year-old.

-Bryan

 

[Thalassamania]

First I want to make it perfectly clear; this thread is not intended to be about my view of the Dive World; I want to know your view of the Dive World. How would you describe the World of Diving from your perspective?

I have timed this thread to give the "Rest of the World" the first shot at responding.

I fully expect and welcome some harsh criticism of my personal views; please don't hold back, tell it like you see it. :kiss2:

Recently a prominent poster here on Scubaboard accused me of having a warped view of the Dive World.

My 2011 resolution is to explore that idea, hopefully starting with this thread. Actually, this is a Ground Hog Day resolution; both because I am a Bill Murray fan and because it is the anniversary of my first broken bone, when I was 3 years old, skiing at Cooper Hill Ski Area, Colorado.

Unfortunately; now a short version of how I come to have the view I have of the Dive World.

I got PADI OW certified with my Kauai (Hawaii) free dive buddies in '92. One of our other house mates was certified and he really put the class together for us, so he could have some dive buddies. The first 5 dives after certification we; went to 90' looking for old scattered wreckage, made a couple cavern dives and did a night dive. Within a couple months I was back to mostly free diving.

A couple years later, after Hurricane Iniki blew me to Maui, I part time worked at a Ka'anapali resort beach activities booth. The dive instructors were pocketing $100 cash minimum every day, just for the intro photos! They got good tips from nearly every diver and the boss paid them by the head, so 4 intro's that all wanted pictures could make one dive worth $250! If only that was my warped view of diving now.

I got semi serious about my hobby of underwater photography, but thought free diving was the best way to get great pictures of the white tip reef sharks in our caverns. I sold some pictures and talked a good marine photographer story, but all through this period I was really just a night bartender who saw glassy morning conditions rarely and had a total of less than 20 logged scuba dives post certification.

Ten years ago, I threw the past away and went to Florida for 10 weeks of non stop scuba instruction and diving. Came away with an inch and a half tall stack of cards and nearly as good an instructor preparation as the $20,000 price tag should indicate.

Back in Hawaii; first an Oahu dive shop with a 6-pac dive boat and 12-pac inflatable whale watch / snorkel boat, next at a South Maui beach resort for the multi resort, island wide resort dive operator from years ago (above), then a 2 location resort dive / snorkel / kayak operator with a 6-pac Molokini dive boat, followed by a short winter with the dive operator at the biggest Maui resort and finally a West Maui operator with a 13-pac dive boat that goes to Lanai and also does day and night shore dives.

All I really know is 10 years of USA's most popular warm water dive worlds, and my Key Largo dive world experience is a decade old. But I flip through most of the dive magazines, watch nearly everything dive on the TV and at the movies, and spend way too much time cyber diving.

I promise you; that was way more tedious and boring for me to compose than for you to read, but I apologize anyway. :shocked2:

You have no experience in the most dived areas of the United States and Canada, the entire Atlantic and Pacific Coasts so you're viewed is warped by your lack of other experience and by the advertising efforts of the agencies who more interested in warm water vacations (that they don't have to pay for) then they are in providing quality training that is suited to temperate areas where the diving is a dash more challenging.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
I think the "fringe" of the Dive World (those not in 70 degree F or warmer water and those not "recreational") contending that the Dive Industry is not supporting their Dive World is like a Lamborghini dealer in Anchorage, Alaska contending that the Auto Industry is not supporting their Auto World. ...

Actually Lamborghini make a good 4x4 that would do well in Alaska. I had one to drive for a few months about fifteen years ago.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

This was part of post #34

Are you familiar with the LM-002, which was first sold in '86? Hummers are a cheap imitation!

Lamborghini cars full specifications

Production of this one-of-a-kind all-terrain vehicle was halted in 1992, the last 60 LM-002's were special equipped LM/American types, with special chromed bumpers, unique striping on both sides, upgraded leather interior and special side moldings underneath the doors, also special alloy OZ/MSW wheels were mounted.
The total production was estimated at 328 units. Today a second-hand LM will cost around $100,000 and if you can afford one, buy it, because the Diablo has some competition, but nothing even comes close to the LM-002.