Visual inspection on tanks

[redacted]

The whining puppies crying about VIPs being a profit center for rapacious dive shops are betraying their ignorance of the expenses that go into the procedure - priced somewhere between $20 & $25 the shop may not lose money on them but certainly doesn't make enough money to be worth getting out of bed for.


Steven Anderson
SDI Visual Inspection Procedures Instructor, PSI Visual Cylinder Inspector & Part-time Dive Shop Monkey

I agree with most of your post but take exception with the quote. The shop sets the price. If you are not making enough $$ then drop the service or increase the price. Or at least wave to the whining puppy in the mirror.

 

[fppf]

Reefraff
I think you need to do your math better.
Reoccurring cost to do a VIP is about $1. It costs $275 for your basic VIP class, and $75 for PSI recert class every 3 years.

As far as tools needed, come on, you need a light, a dental mirror, a few picks, a straight edge, a big wrench, and a torque wrench. Most people that would even want to do there own VIPs will have most of the tools in there garage. The light and picks can be made for $20, you can even make an exact copy of the PSI rape you up the butt light for $30.

So in closing, here is MY math.
I own 10 cylinders, so at $20 a cylinder that's $200 a year.
So I take the class, $275
I buy all the tools, say $150 if I did not have anything.
So I have $425 invested, and I'm good for 3 years.
3 years worth of VIPs costs me $600, so I break even in year 3 and save money.
Now I need to spend $75 on the recert, but that gets paid for in first half of year 4.
So now I have years 4.5, 5, and 6 before spending any more money.
So how am I "always underwater"???

As far as a dive shop not making money, give me a break dude.
$1 reoccurring cost, 10 minutes for your average VIP, I can do 6 an hour, at $20.
That's pulling in $120 an hour for the shop. That seems more than enough for a healthy profit margins. Even counting the cylinder that takes a whole hour every now and then. But they charge more for those ones anyway.

And most honest people doing this tend to fail good cylinders than pass bad ones. I have no room for dishonest people trying to work the system.

 

[SDAnderson]

I agree with most of your post but take exception with the quote. The shop sets the price. If you are not making enough $$ then drop the service or increase the price. Or at least wave to the whining puppy in the mirror.

You missed the target, Simo. :bonk:

I wasn't complaining that the price is too low, I was challenging the assertion that it's too high and chastising the uninformed or ill-intentioned who perpetuate that meme.

The VIP program is optional. I recommend it and I hope people will participate in it but everyone has the right to decline having a VIP done. Though I won't fill their cylinders if they opt out of the VIP program, they are welcome to make other arrangements to gas up and we can still be friends. Rather than dropping a service that benefits everybody I'll let the occasional customer who isn't willing to participate exclude themselves. No tickee, no washee, so sorry. That seems more fair to everyone.

 

[redacted]

You missed the target, Simo. :bonk:

I wasn't complaining that the price is too low, I was challenging the assertion that it's too high and chastising the uninformed or ill-intentioned who perpetuate that meme.

The VIP program is optional. I recommend it and I hope people will participate in it but everyone has the right to decline having a VIP done. Though I won't fill their cylinders if they opt out of the VIP program, they are welcome to make other arrangements to gas up and we can still be friends. Rather than dropping a service that benefits everybody I'll let the occasional customer who isn't willing to participate exclude themselves. No tickee, no washee, so sorry. That seems more fair to everyone.

I did not see any poster complaining about the price. I took the issue in post #2 to be with the "fleecing" rather than whether he was being fleeced out of $20, $5, or $50. Knowing how some shops do their VIPs, I have always wondered why any shop would fill a tank with an unrecognized sticker. I wonder if that reveals how concerned they really are with the condition of that tank.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but the current system is a bit suspect. It would make more sense to me if shops charged more to fill tanks that do not have a VIS sticker from a "trusted" inspector. Perhaps an extra couple bucks for a "Quickie VIS" (pull the valve and take a peek) with an appropriate mini-sticker so it need not be unnecessarily repeated. I'm not saying I would like that, but it would make much more sense than what we currently do.

 

[SDAnderson]

Reefraff
I think you need to do your math better.
Reoccurring cost to do a VIP is about $1. It costs $275 for your basic VIP class, and $75 for PSI recert class every 3 years.

As far as tools needed, come on, you need a light, a dental mirror, a few picks, a straight edge, a big wrench, and a torque wrench. Most people that would even want to do there own VIPs will have most of the tools in there garage. The light and picks can be made for $20, you can even make an exact copy of the PSI rape you up the butt light for $30.

So in closing, here is MY math.
I own 10 cylinders, so at $20 a cylinder that's $200 a year.
So I take the class, $275
I buy all the tools, say $150 if I did not have anything.
So I have $425 invested, and I'm good for 3 years.
3 years worth of VIPs costs me $600, so I break even in year 3 and save money.
Now I need to spend $75 on the recert, but that gets paid for in first half of year 4.
So now I have years 4.5, 5, and 6 before spending any more money.
So how am I "always underwater"???

As far as a dive shop not making money, give me a break dude.
$1 reoccurring cost, 10 minutes for your average VIP, I can do 6 an hour, at $20.
That's pulling in $120 an hour for the shop. That seems more than enough for a healthy profit margins. Even counting the cylinder that takes a whole hour every now and then. But they charge more for those ones anyway.

And most honest people doing this tend to fail good cylinders than pass bad ones. I have no room for dishonest people trying to work the system.

Your analysis is inaccurate and incomplete.

How many of your knock-off "PSI rape you up the butt lights" can you sell me at $30.00 a unit? I need a couple of dozen right now and more down the road. I'm not kidding - I'd love to find a cheap source for a comparable quality alternative - but I don't think you can deliver. If you think you can, let's talk.

The picks aren't that hard to manufacture but they do need to be fairly precise. The harder part is how to measure the probe penetration - PSI uses a finely machined reference plate which I'm also interested in purchasing in quantity.

You've left a bunch of other tools out that are needed to do the work correctly. It takes a couple of flexible lights and a couple of different dental mirrors, at a minimum, to check the neck threads and crown interior. Better is a TIP light but that's an (expensive) option. And so it goes but, for the sake of the argument and since most folks interested in doing this work have some of the tools they will need, I'll stipulate your $150.00 cost based upon your assertion that you can manufacture the inspection light for $30.00. Otherwise, the tool cost goes up considerably.

The tools don't last forever, though. The inspection light, whether at PSI's price of $195.00 for a set of 10" and 18" wands with transformer and cables or your $30.00 price is not going to last more than a couple of years and will need to be replaced. In fairness, this item probably should be considered a consumable, which leads us to the rest of the consumables you included in your analysis: Oh, that's right, there were no consumables in your analysis. Bad puppy!

Add the consumables costs of:

• $0.75...a Viton neck o-ring
• $0.10...a Viton face o-ring for any K valves
• $0.05...lubricant for the threads (at $28.00 per oz for Christo-Lube - you are using Christo-Lube, not that slop silicone, right?),
• $0.35...inspection documentation forms (they are required per the protocol),
• $0.92...the EOI stickers, ($55.00 from PSI or $275.00 minimum run from LindyCal)
• $5.00...an air fill.

If you can do all that for less than $7.00 per cylinder, you're doing a lot more volume than 10 cylinders a year and able to buy in quantity.

So using your 10 cylinders per year basis, a six-year analysis looks more like this:

• $5.83...Training
• $2.50...Equipment
• $7.00...Consumables
• $15.33...per cylinder

For those of you doing your own calculations at home, remember that the inspection light cost is in dispute - rope lights from Home Depot and Menard's don't work - not that I haven't tried. A more real figure, at least until we establish the viability of the proposed $30.00 alternative, is going to run about $300.00 higher over six years for the aforementioned "PSI rape you up the butt lights" light (or $5.26 per cylinder for the 10 cylinders/6 years scenario).

Also not included is anything for labor. I don't know anything about you but I've been doing visual inspections - lots and lots of them for years - and I can state unequivocally that if you are able to average 10 minutes per inspection you are not doing the work properly. Period. If you're getting them done in 10 minutes it's because you're cheating the protocol somewhere and that's my most important point: it's guys like you that make it so hard on the honest independent inspectors. You're probably pricing it correctly, however - if you aren't doing the inspections correctly the time invested in doing them is worthless, but most people will put some value on their time. I might be able to average 3 or 4 inspections an hour but the average amateur with his limited experience isn't going to average anywhere near that.

Bad puppy! Stop messing up the floor.

 

[SDAnderson]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but the current system is a bit suspect. It would make more sense to me if shops charged more to fill tanks that do not have a VIS sticker from a "trusted" inspector. Perhaps an extra couple bucks for a "Quickie VIS" (pull the valve and take a peek) with an appropriate mini-sticker so it need not be unnecessarily repeated. I'm not saying I would like that, but it would make much more sense than what we currently do.

The current system is definitely dodgy but as with all things, the standard isn't perfection, it's the alternative. Any cylinder that is suspect, current EOI or not, it gets a visual before it gets filled. Usually, if we don't know the inspector, we'll ask the customer to leave the cylinder overnight while we verify the inspectors credentials and do our own VIP. Free to the customer, except for the delay.

The biggest problem lately has been the "anonymous" stickers from PSI, SDI/TDI and GUE. PSI and SDI/TDI are supposed to have the inspector identification on them, if they don't we get nervous. GUE officially supports disabling burst disks so when those stickers come in (and they never have inspector identification on them) we get more nervous than nervous. Personally, I think we should be charging customers with anonymous VIP stickers for the visuals and let them take it up with the inspector that didn't fill out the paperwork correctly but thus far the boss has been willing to eat the expense in the interest of making nice with everyone.

 

[muddiver]

Great, what type of idiot would diable a burst disk! Tank about Federal law violations!

 

[fppf]

Wow dude, I'm certified. I'm also an aerospace engineer that works with very high pressure stuff every day. I'm WAY more qualified to do these inspections than most instructors. I took the course to learn the fine details and what is being looked for. And to also get the spec limits for different types of cylinders.

If other dive shops follow your math its no wonder why so many are closing. And if you are REALLY paying the prices you quoted, you need to shop around more.

First, paper work items
EOI stickers are only $0.35 each!!! not $0.92, and you can have stickers order from all over the internet for your dive shop for about the same costs.
I use digital forms for inspection with software I wrote. It stores all inspections and I can print out a hard copy for a "customer" for the cost of a sheet of paper. I don't print them because I'm my own customer.

Now for durable consumables, items that go into the inspection.
Neck oring, where are you buying your orings? You can get bulk Viton Orings that size for $0.51
K valve face oring, $0.08
Oxygen safe lube is not cheap, but you only need a small dab, we don't goop on silicone.

MY cost for air fills, being joe walk of the street is $3

I had almost all the tools needed for inspection. I made my own depth plate with a drill press, and end mill bit, and a set of calipers. Total cost, FREE to me, already had the stuff and a scrape piece of aluminum on the floor.

The tools will last MUCH longer than 6 years, even used in a commercial dive shop doing hundreds of inspections a year. If they don't your monkeys are to rough on stuff. The LEDs used in PSI lights are rated for at least 20,000 hours. That means if left on 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, it will last at least 7 years. I know most shops don't do nearly that amount of inspections.

To make lights, you can buy white LED's for $1 to $2 each. Then just need a piece of hard clear plastic, heat gun, wall wart power supply, and a piece of shrink wrap.

 

[fppf]

Oh, and I'm not saying everyone should be doing there own inspections. Most people should not, most people don't own 10 cylinders. If I only owned 3 or 4 I would be paying someone else.

 

[SDAnderson]

Wow dude, I'm certified. I'm also an aerospace engineer that works with very high pressure stuff every day. I'm WAY more qualified to do these inspections than most instructors. I took the course to learn the fine details and what is being looked for. And to also get the spec limits for different types of cylinders.

If other dive shops follow your math its no wonder why so many are closing. And if you are REALLY paying the prices you quoted, you need to shop around more.

I wasn't quoting my prices, I was quoting approximate prices for a low-volume buyer. Unit cost isn't calculated on the total piece count but on the usable count. In your case, you need approximately 10 units a year. If you buy 10,000 you'll get a better per piece cost but you'll still be throwing a lot of money down the toilet.​

First, paper work items
EOI stickers are only $0.35 each!!! not $0.92, and you can have stickers order from all over the internet for your dive shop for about the same costs.

PSI will sell you the stickers for $35.00 for 100 stickers. Everything above the 60 you need is waste, however. You also need the inspector identification stickers that go on the primary sticker which will cost you another $20.00. $55.00/60 = $0.916~. If you can find a quality vinyl sticker that will stay on for a year and come off at the end of the year without abrading, tearing or fading for .35 each in very limited runs, let everybody know about it. I'm not familiar with such an item.​

I use digital forms for inspection with software I wrote. It stores all inspections and I can print out a hard copy for a "customer" for the cost of a sheet of paper. I don't print them because I'm my own customer.

Heck, a photocopy of a form would have done just fine. Your custom software (I know, it's a relatively simple database function, we use one in the shop, too) was free but what did it cost you in time? A few hours? Divide by 10 per year? Your software is probably a better option than a paper form but also way more expensive if you count development costs. That's the fun - and the price - of being a geek.​

Now for durable consumables, items that go into the inspection.
Neck oring, where are you buying your orings? You can get bulk Viton Orings that size for $0.51

What I pay for o-rings and what the average guy on the street pays for o-rings are two different things. A good -214 90A Viton o-ring isn't a common item at Menard's and buying in bulk isn't a sensible option for most folks.​

K valve face oring, $0.08
Oxygen safe lube is not cheap, but you only need a small dab, we don't goop on silicone.

MY cost for air fills, being joe walk of the street is $3

Must be nice. We only pump OCA, which makes it a little more expensive for us. $3.00 is very cheap for Grade E, let alone hyper-filtered air.​

I had almost all the tools needed for inspection. I made my own depth plate with a drill press, and end mill bit, and a set of calipers. Total cost, FREE to me, already had the stuff and a scrape piece of aluminum on the floor.

Wear on the equipment might be negligible but your time should be worth something.​

The tools will last MUCH longer than 6 years, even used in a commercial dive shop doing hundreds of inspections a year. If they don't your monkeys are to rough on stuff.

You have no idea. :shocked2:​

The LEDs used in PSI lights are rated for at least 20,000 hours. That means if left on 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, it will last at least 7 years. I know most shops don't do nearly that amount of inspections.

I've never had one last anywhere near that long. I'm not certain but it seems that the transformer starts to go and then the lamps start to burn out and then it's time to buy a new one. Definitely sucks but there you have it.​

To make lights, you can buy white LED's for $1 to $2 each. Then just need a piece of hard clear plastic, heat gun, wall wart power supply, and a piece of shrink wrap.

I'm definitely interested in seeing.​