Visual inspection on tanks

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Question for Dive Right In Scuba, if a customer comes in to your shop with a cylinder that has a current hydro stamp and a VIP sticker correctly dated and current from some other shop/agency, would you be, at all, concerned that it was correctly inspected?

Good question- no easy answer. It all depends on who did it and who the customer is. For the most part, I would say its not an issue. For air, there is ALOT less concern than O2. Now if it looks like it was a homemade sticker, and upon questioning of what was done, they guy really doesn't have a clue, then we might require a quick peak inside...possibly free of charge or small fee. If upon questioning, the guy did it, and has the knowledge of what was done, and knows his procedures or took a class, then its probably not an issue. Most of the time, we know all of these people, or we get to know them, so there isn't huge concerns

It really all depends on the circumstance. Now, I am not saying we are VIP ****s, that couldn't be further from the truth, but there is a safety factor here.

I trust other shops, agencies etc....but if a GUE tank comes in(has happened) with no holes stamped out and the guy says he got his VIP cert 2 years ago and owns 3 tanks....we might raise some questions, after questions and answers, we base our decision on what will be done. But we would NOT turn him away without a fill.

I had a customer bring in a tank bought from a shop in Florida online....they stamped the wrong date(future date that was not here yet) on the cylinder....we asked some questions and found out this info...called the Florida shop and all was good. We took the sticker off, and replaced it at no charge after a quick look inside and proper markings.

As a shop, there is some liability issues on certain things if you knowingly look the other direction. A few questions from us and answers from the customer clears up a lot.

This being said, we have NEVER turned away a tank or required someone that we had to do a viz, unless it was out of date. We have coached people, and made sure it was done right for the next fill if it was done improperly

Its stupid and pointless to lose a customer over an airfill, but at the same time, its just as stupid to not educate them on the proper practice or standard and just fill the tank

I hope that clarifies a little....

 

[jrc]

I know of a lds that use to dry a o2 clean tank with a shop vac until they hired someone that told them different. This same lds is also one that gives customers a hard time if they didn't do the vip. THIS SAME LDS IS ON THIS BOARD ALWAYS WITH A HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE WHEN IT COMES THIS VIP DISCUSSION

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I know of a lds that use to dry a o2 clean tank with a shop vac until they hired someone that told them different. This same lds is also one that gives customers a hard time if they didn't do the vip. THIS SAME LDS IS ON THIS BOARD ALWAYS WITH A HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE WHEN IT COMES THIS VIP DISCUSSION

Looks like one of my investors from years back still has a vendetta....Wasn't even talking about you in my posts, but since you bring it up....I do think you did a VIZ on someones tanks that came in a couple months ago...with the wrong date...and we coached him on the procedure, and it was fixed the next time he came in. Jeff is a great customer.....Haven't even seen you in the shop in about 2 years John, how would you know what we do? Steve started 4 months ago and has brought A LOT to the shop and we are lucky to have someone with his knowledge now on staff! LOL no tanks were ever O2 cleaned with a shop vac. However, we HAVE used a shop vac to dry tanks after a tumble....There a problem with that? Actually John, only being 3 years in business so far, last time you were here, we hadn't even had to O2 clean anyones tanks...hell we didn't even have Nitrox or O2 at that point....we just got all that this year!

If you have a bone to pick stop acting nice when you see me at the quarry, and lets have a talk....bringing it here is pretty weak

I would like to hear about who we gave a hard time filling.....? I know who you dive with, and who comes in here....I think you have some misinformation

The only thing that could be construed as a hard time, is either the one with the wrong dates, or when Chris, an Inspector and who holds an O2 clean cert asked us to fill his O2 clean tank with O2, he had just Cleaned and VIPed, and put a storage fill in. I asked who did the storage fill as only 3 places have O2 compatible air for storage fills, including us.....his wasn't filled at any of them....We filled it anyway without requiring additional cleaning, and again, coached him

 

[Captain CaveMan]

edit....

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

edited....well, um, just deleted and replaced with this boring line....

if you must know why it was edited:
Captain caveman and I made up and cuddled....JRC was outside jealous, so we let him in on our cuddle session

 

[redacted]

I just don't know what is more fun; Illinois politics or dive shops.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Basicly with you using a shopvac to dry tanks you introduced hydro carbons/ dirt/ who knows what into the tank. --No thank you--.

Missed this point-

We never blew anything into the tank...the vacuum has a "Suck" and "Blow" option....we used SUCK....not blowing anything into the tank...but we no longer do that...but we are now looking at a different vacuum system to suck the tank dry. So no hydrocarbons were introduced, nor dirt, or who knows what else....and that again, was not O2 cleaning...that was after a tumble and rinse

 

[SDAnderson]

I just don't know what is more fun; Illinois politics or dive shops.

Or Texas snipers...

 

[DirtyDiver Inc.]

For my very first post/reply, I would like to say that the proprietors at DRIS are very handsome. I knew the first time I walked in I loved that young man behind the counter (but not in love). Furthermore, I have always been serviced with a smile and a high degree of professionalism. As the founder of the 'Dive-it-Dirty' association I have continually been instructed by the aforementioned dive shop, that they will NOT, and I repeat NOT, fill my acetylene welding bottles/ custom doubles setup/ with road flare can-light illuminaters, for my historic deep dive in the Cal Sag River abyss. Since then, I have resorted to a bicycle air pump and garden hose, with Chris and John at the surface in a John boat, wearing speedos, with a glass goldfish bowl over my head.
In all seriousness, great work at the shop....Interesting thread...may cooler heads prevail!

 

[SDAnderson]

i should know what the answer to this question should be but i will ask anyway

do you think UNTRAINED people shoule do the VIP's on their own tanks?

by this i mean
remove the valve
look for rust and aluminum oxide
remove rust and aluminum oxide
02 clean tank and valve
justify tank fit for service
reinstall valve and wait till next VIP and hydro

If you want to fill it elsewhere, it's none of my business - though I think you're making a mistake if you don't get it done by somebody who knows what they're doing. If you want me to fill it, there must be an annual visual inspection done and the inspector has to be properly trained, properly identified and follow accepted protocols.

Annual VIPs are primarily required by the industry to protect the fill station operator and the dive shop owner. SCUBA cylinders, because of their exposure to water and because they tend to be owned by amateurs with little knowledge or care about their handling, can and sometimes do go seriously bad between 5 year requalifications. A secondary benefit to the annual visual is that we can often nip little problems in the bud before they become unfixable, no small benefit when a replacement is going to cost nearly US$200.00. The whining puppies crying about VIPs being a profit center for rapacious dive shops are betraying their ignorance of the expenses that go into the procedure - priced somewhere between $20 & $25 the shop may not lose money on them but certainly doesn't make enough money to be worth getting out of bed for.

Becoming an effective visual inspector requires a little bit of book learning, a few tools, more than a little bit of honesty and a lot of experience. The average guy spending a few hours each off-season in his garage checking out his mini-fleet will never get enough experience to be good at it, all we can hope for is that he's straight enough to bring his questions to someone who can give him a second opinion when he finds something funky. The average guy inspecting his mini-fleet isn't going to save money by doing his own inspections, either. By the time he pays for the class (and the 3 year retraining) and the necessary tools and supplies, he'll be underwater forever. If you'll forgive the pun.

As someone who fills cylinders, I will say that the scariest thing isn't the unqualified inspector - so long as he's honest enough to ask for a second opinion when he finds something unusual. The really scary guys are the gamers, the guys who are desperate to cheat the system. Whether they're trying to save a few dollars (or a few hours) or they've decided that it's good sport to **** with their local dive shop, I've seen some really creative goofballs that have put my butt and their cylinders at jeopardy without so much as batting an eye. Counterfeit EOI stickers, terminally cruddy cylinders with brand-new EOI stickers, new MOD stickers over 1/4" gouges, the list is frighteningly long and dishonorable. No wonder their fills smell like pee.

If you want to do your own inspections, good for you. I learned how because I'm a scuba geek, years before I started working as a dive shop monkey. I didn't get to be any good at it until I started working in a shop and got to stick my eyeballs inside an endless stream of crusty, cankerous, pox-ridden tanks more suited for a septic field than diving. You won't get good at it either but that's okay, so long as you take your time, look carefully, follow the protocols and ask for help when you are anything less than 100% sure.

As for John & Chris & Mike not getting along, well, when you get as old as I am you've generally learned that trying to generate the stream necessary to write your name in the snow often results in wet shoes rather than flourishing prose. All 3 of them are nice guys and mean well but winter is coming and they're going to get frostbite on their winkies if they don't zip up soon. Could we have a little Kumbaya moment, please? Just give me some advance notice so I can bring a camera...

Steven Anderson
SDI Visual Inspection Procedures Instructor, PSI Visual Cylinder Inspector & Part-time Dive Shop Monkey