Visual inspection and O2 cleaning pricing

[nitroxfox]

You should really look at 69:7351-7366 OSHA which is the exemption to the Mandatory decompression chamber requirement for recreational scuba if and only if 4 conditions are met.
1. No decompression diving
2. only N2 and O2 in gas mix with 40% max
3. PO2 of a max 1.4
4. max depth of 130 FSW
if one exceeds any of these conditions, the decompression chamber is mandatory on site within 5 minutes of the dive.
Here is the link:
Commercial Diving Operations - 69:7351-7366

As far as cleaning cylinders, the DOT mandates cleaning at 23.5% O2. They are very clear on this. Disregard Federal Law at your own risk. I know you will hear differing opinions from dive shops but here is what the DOT says, it is interpretation #11-0175 and is from September 08, 2011. OSHA is the same.

PHMSA - Interpretations by Date - Interpretation #11-0175

 

[nitroxfox]

I forgot to mention that you should take a look at section 6 of the OSHA document. If one wants to use a continuous flow stick to blend nitrox, you need to get a letter from the compressor manufacturer stating that the compressor is safe to use with the highest fraction of O2 used in the blending process. No oil filled compressor manufacturer will give such a letter. You start with pure O2 and dilute to 32-36% and bank. No compressor manufacturer will give a letter saying their compressor is good to use with 100% O2. Even if you use synthetic lubricants it is still considered an oil-filled compressor.
You also have to filter the air to produce O2 compatible air. Grade E is not O2 compatible.

No matter how you mix the nitrox, the DOT still requires cleaning of cylinders at 23.5% if you want to transport them on a public road. According to 49CFR171 in the definitions section, COMMERCE IS "TRADE OR TRANSPORTATION IN TH US"....

If you have a dive business you are involved in trade, if you drive the cylinder on a public road, that is transportation. It also applies to waterways. If one does not wish to use a cylinder in commerce and wants to use it solely on private property and no longer qualify the cylinder as a DOT cylinder, they must obliterate the markings.
Good luck getting a cylinder filled with xxx-ed out markings on it.

 

[redacted]

I forgot to mention that you should take a look at section 6 of the OSHA document. If one wants to use a continuous flow stick to blend nitrox, you need to get a letter from the compressor manufacturer stating that the compressor is safe to use with the highest fraction of O2 used in the blending process. No oil filled compressor manufacturer will give such a letter. You start with pure O2 and dilute to 32-36% and bank. No compressor manufacturer will give a letter saying their compressor is good to use with 100% O2. Even if you use synthetic lubricants it is still considered an oil-filled compressor.
You also have to filter the air to produce O2 compatible air. Grade E is not O2 compatible.

No matter how you mix the nitrox, the DOT still requires cleaning of cylinders at 23.5% if you want to transport them on a public road. According to 49CFR171 in the definitions section, COMMERCE IS "TRADE OR TRANSPORTATION IN TH US"....

If you have a dive business you are involved in trade, if you drive the cylinder on a public road, that is transportation. It also applies to waterways. If one does not wish to use a cylinder in commerce and wants to use it solely on private property and no longer qualify the cylinder as a DOT cylinder, they must obliterate the markings.
Good luck getting a cylinder filled with xxx-ed out markings on it.

Only if "you" is a business (employer). If "you" is a private individual not engaging in commercial activities, "you" are not restricted by DOT and OSHA requirements. Of course, any business you may be interacting with may be subject to those requirement and that may create some limits.

I have cylinders that are no longer qualified by the DOT (expired hydro). I fill and use them as I see fit. I doubt your claim that the markings must be x'ed out but am willing to learn if you have a proper reference.

 

[nitroxfox]

This is an exerpt from an official DOT interpretaiton I received 11/15/2011...

Q4. If an aluminum cylinder, used to transport Nitrox with elevated levels of oxygen ranging from 21% to 100%, is marked with a DOT specification marking, must it be maintained to that specification, including the cleaning requirements specified in
§ 173.302(b), if applicable, when it is no longer in commerce?
A4. The answer is yes. Cylinders that are filled and used solely on a private work-site and not offered for transportation in commerce are subject to the Occupation Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) Standards. In accordance with OSHA standard 29 CFR § 1910.101, each employer shall determine that compressed gas cylinders under their control are in a safe condition to the extent that this can be determined by visual inspection conducted as prescribed in the HMR. As stated in 49 CFR
§ 180.205(b), no person may mark a cylinder to represent that it meets a DOT specification unless all applicable requirements of 49 CFR subpart C of Part 180 have been met, a cylinder that is marked to certify that it conforms to HMR requirements, including the requirements specified in § 173.302 if applicable, must be maintained in accordance with applicable specification requirements in the HMR whether or not it is in transportation in commerce. If the owner of the DOT specification cylinder wishes to continue to use the cylinder but does not wish to re-qualify the cylinder as a specification cylinder, the owner must obliterate or cover any specification markings whether or not it is being used to transport hazardous materials in commerce.

I hope this satisfies your inquiry.
Sincerely,
T. Glenn Foster
Chief, Regulatory Review and Reinvention Branch
Standards and Rulemaking Division
173.302, 180.205

Also,

U.S. Department of Transportation 1200 New Jersey Ave. SE Washington. D.C. 20590
Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration
MAR 242011
Mr. Jon Anderson
Airgas SAFECO R
P.O. Box 20067
Cheyenne, WY 82003
Reference No.: 10-0207
Dear Mr. Anderson:
This responds to your email requesting clarification applicable to the use of Department of
Transportation (DOT) specification cylinders under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR;
49 CFR Parts 171-180). Your questions are paraphrased and answered as follows:
01. If a cylinder is marked with a DOT specification marking, must it be maintained to that
specification when it is no longer in commerce?
AI. The answer is yes. Cylinders that are filled and used solely on a private work-site and not
offered for transportation in commerce are subject to the Occupation Safety and Health
Administration (OSHA) Standards. In accordance with OSHA standard 29 CFR
§ 1910.101, each employer shall determine that compressed gas cylinders under their
control are in a safe condition to the extent that this can be determined by visual
inspection conducted as prescribed in the HMR, specifically 49 CFR § 180.205.
Therefore, based on § 180.205(b), which states no person may mark a cylinder to
represent that it meets a DOT specification unless all applicable requirements. of 49 CFR
subpart C of Part 180 have been met, a cylinder that is marked to certify that it conforms
to HMR requirements must be maintained in accordance with applicable specification
requirements in the HMR whether or not it is in transportation in commerce. If the owner
of the DOT specification cylinder wishes to continue to use the cylinder but does not
wish to re-qualify the cylinder as a specification cylinder, the owner must obliterate or
cover any specification markings whether or not it is being used to transport hazardous
materials in commerce.
02. If an individual has the ability to fill its own DOT specification cylinders and use them
entirely on private property, does DOT have jurisdiction over these cylinders?
A2. Cylinders that are filled and used at a private work-site and not offered for transportation
in commerce are not directly regulated under the HMR, but in fact come under the
jurisdiction of Occupation Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) Standards. It
should be noted that based on 29 CFR § 1910.101, if the owner of the cylinder wishes to
fill and continue to use the DOT specification cylinder but does not wish to re-qualify the
cylinder as a DOT specification cylinder, they must obliterate or cover any specification
markings even when used entirely on private property.
03. . Ifa customer has a tube trailer that contains DOT specification cylinders that are past their requalification test date can these cylinders be filled and used on-site? Does the DOT have jurisdiction over these cylinders?
A3. Cylinders that are filled and used at a private work-site and not offered for transportation in commerce are not directly regulated under the HMR, but in fact come under the jurisdiction of OSHA. It should also be noted that based on 29 CFR § 1910.101, if the owner of a tube trailer containing DOT specification cylinders that are past the requalification test date wishes to fill and continue to use a tube trailer containing DOT specification cylinders on-site, the owner must retest and mark the cylinders in accordance with appropriate specification in the HMR or, as an alternative, obliterate or cover any specification markings.
I hope this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
-/AO-/b ~~
~Xles E Betts
Director,
Standards and Rulemaking Division
l6-ene dIet~
j1'3·o01
Drakeford. Carolyn (PHMSA) 5 ISO. ADj
From: Betts, Charles (PHMSA)
Sent: Monday, October 04,20106:47 PM
To: Drakeford, Carolyn (PHMSA)
Subject: Fw: DOT Letter of Interpretation we spoke about today
From: John Anderson (SAFECOR) [mailto:John.Anderson.SAFECOR@Airgas.com]
Sent: Monday, October 04,2010 06:40 PM
To: Chaney, Wayne (PHMSA); Cassidy, Duane (PHMSA)
Subject: DOT Letter of Interpretation we spoke about today
Good evening,
This is the Letter of Interpretation that we spoke about today. Our main question is -Does the DOT still stand behind the
statement that if the cylinder is marked with a DOT specification that is must be maintained to that specification regardless
if it is in commerce?
Example -if a customer has the ability to fill their own cylinders (such as a 3AA) on site and use them on site does the
DOT have jurisdiction over these cylinders?
Example -if a customer has a tube trailer with out of test tubes (such as 3AAX.) but has them filled on site and uses the
product from the tubes on site does the DOT have jurisdiction over these tubes?
Thank you,
John Anderson
Airgas SAFECOR
P.O. Box 20067 Cheyenne, WY 82003 Phone 1-307-778-8809 Fax 1-307-778-7497 john.anderson@airgas.com

The DOT informs me that regardless of whether a cylinder is used in commerce, if that cylinder is transported on a public thoroughfare or waterway that the DOT Federal Regulations MUST be met. If you want to stay exclusively on private property and not expose the general public, you must obliterate the DOT markings if you do not wish to requalify the cylinder and not cross a public road.

Bear in mind, this only applies if you want to abide with Federal Law. You are free to break all the laws you want, you just have to pay the fines and other penalties.

 

[nitroxfox]

I meant to add that I was informed to XXXXX out the DOT markings to "obliterate" them. The interpretation says:

"if the owner of the cylinder wishes to
fill and continue to use the DOT specification cylinder but does not wish to re-qualify the
cylinder as a DOT specification cylinder, they must obliterate or cover any specification
markings even when used entirely on private property."

I am not sure what would satisfy them as to "covering" the markings. I was personally told to obliterate and xxxxxx out the markings.

 

[redacted]

I meant to add that I was informed to XXXXX out the DOT markings to "obliterate" them. The interpretation says:

"if the owner of the cylinder wishes to
fill and continue to use the DOT specification cylinder but does not wish to re-qualify the
cylinder as a DOT specification cylinder, they must obliterate or cover any specification
markings even when used entirely on private property."

I am not sure what would satisfy them as to "covering" the markings. I was personally told to obliterate and xxxxxx out the markings.

Note the repeated use of the terms "employer" and "work-site" and think about who those terms apply to. Those terms are what brings OSHA into the picture. I can tell you those terms and the associated OSHA regulations do not apply to me and my scuba tanks.

 

[nitroxfox]

I believe you would be correct as long as you are not a business. OSHA is an employer/employee relationship. Your customers would have rights under the Uniform Code of Commerce. An individual doing this for their own purposes ,at their own expense, on their own property, I believe would be excluded.

As far as the DOT, I am not so sure. It appears that Mr. Anderson from AirGas was referring to his customers who come for fills and Hydros/inspections, etc. when he asked the question...

"This is the Letter of Interpretation that we spoke about today. Our main question is -Does the DOT still stand behind the
statement that if the cylinder is marked with a DOT specification that is must be maintained to that specification regardless
if it is in commerce?
Example -if a customer has the ability to fill their own cylinders (such as a 3AA) on site and use them on site does the
DOT have jurisdiction over these cylinders?"

The DOT response was YES. They claim jurisdiction when the cylinders are transported on the road. OSHA has jurisdiction when they are used on a private work site.

My personal opinion is to use your best judgement. Fill your cylinders slowly and carefully. Open valves slowly. When traveling on the road, secure your cylinders and obey the traffic laws as best as you can. I have been filling cylinders for a couple of decades and with the exception of a couple of burst disc failures, have had no problems. In all that time, I have had no issues with the DOT either from a business standpoint nor on the highway. They are too busy doing other things than to stop cars carrying scuba cylinders, I know of no one ever being hassled for it.
However, if some jerk rear ends you and there is a problem with the cylinders, that may be another issue.

I want you to know that I may not share all of the opinions of the DOT, but they make the rules.

Thanks for the informative, spirited discussion and I wish you success and good fortune.

 

[irishsquid]

I don't recall the breakdown on the price, but; I paid $95 for 2 tanks: hydro, vis/O2 clean, and fill here in Chattanooga.

 

[Six2Life]

I believe you would be correct as long as you are not a business.

I believe this is only true if the business has employees which is not always the case.

Where I used to live there was an older guy that ran a Kawasaki/Suzuki dealership that sold utility atv's to the local farmers. The only people that ever worked in that shop were the owner and his wife. This guy had been in business forever and had stuff stacked to the ceiling in practically every square inch of his shop. Story goes that one day after years of being in business an OSHA inspector shows up and informs him that he is required allow him to inspect the shop. The old guy promptly tells the inspector to "get bent" and kicks him off the property. The inspector immediately called the sheriff who showed up and basically told the inspector that there was nothing he could do since the shop didn't actually employ anyone.

That's the story anyways...

 

[scotthowes]

Up state NY 2 tanks hydro and vis $105 with tax