Very Sad Day......Texas man dies while cave diving in Florida.

[Brian Gilpin]

Hey Cave Diver

I'm all in favor of a persons right to take risks. I'm also in favor of honesty. Cave diving has too be way more dangerous than diving the Keys. To the outsider cave diving seems to be about taking risks and surviving where others dare not go. Any diver can accidentally break the rules but some environments are less forgiving of errors than others. Where am I going wrong here?

Be Safe

Brian

 

[Cave Diver]

Brian Gilpin once bubbled...
Hey Cave Diver

I'm all in favor of a persons right to take risks. I'm also in favor of honesty. Cave diving has too be way more dangerous than diving the Keys. To the outsider cave diving seems to be about taking risks and surviving where others dare not go. Any diver can accidentally break the rules but some environments are less forgiving of errors than others. Where am I going wrong here?

Be Safe

Brian

Brian,

There are 5 basic rules to cave diving, called the rules of accident analysis. There are only 2 people that I'm aware of who died while cave diving that did not break any of the rules. One of those was attributed to a heart attack, the other trapped by a cave in reportedly caused by OW divers near the entrance.

Those rules are:
1) Training-- being properly trained to enter the cave environment and not diving beyond your level of training (i.e. dont do a cave dive if you're only BOW or cavern certified. Dive masters and instructors are among the highest fatality rate in caves.)
2) Guideline-- always maintain a continous guideline to the surface. (i.e. no visual jumps from one line to another)
3) Air-- maintain a minimum of 1/3 in, 1/3out 1/3 in reserve. In syphon caves, high silt areas, scootering, etc. more conservative figures should be used.
4) Depth-- Do not exceed the depth limit you are trained for (i.e. no deep caves unless you have trimix training and use it)
5) Lights-- Minimum of one primary light and 2 back of lights to start a dive.

Keep in mind that the cave environment has known hazards. You know when you start a dive that you are dealing with an overhead enviroment, you can judge the flow of the cave, you can tell if it is going to be silty, etc.

Jump off a boat in the keys, you never know if you are going to have a current at the bottom, if the current is going the same way at the top as at the bottom, if the boat is going to be there when you surface, if the viz is going to be good enough for you to find the wreck/reef/etc.

You dont "accidently" break the rules of cave diving. Everyone of them requires either a conscious effort or a lack of attention to break.

There are lots of people who have broken them and lived. But there are very few who have died that havent broken at least one.

Cave diving is not about taking risks, or going where others dare not go. It is about carefully managing the risks that are present in order to safely enjoy another part of our underwater world.

SCUBA diving without proper training is just as dangerous as cave diving without proper training. So is flying a plane, or driving a car, or any multitude of everyday things we take for granted.

And you are absolutely right that some environments are less forgiving than others. Anytime we are underwater, we are in an alien environment. Someone can drown in openwater, or even their swimming pool just as easily as they can in a cave.

I hope that sheds a little bit of light on it for you.

 

[UGA]

Cave Diver once bubbled...

For what it's worth, to those who view cave diving as a reckless or dangerous sport, lets not forget that an OW diver was lost just a few weeks ago from the keys. Diving in general can be dangerous, and cave diving is not any more dangerous than any other type.

With all due respect (and I do have a great deal of respect for you after reading your recent posts), it's a dangerous argument to say that cave diving is no more dangerous than OW diving. If you really think that, you're ignoring reality.

Diving is more dangerous than not diving. I enjoy diving so much that I'm willing to take that risk. And cave diving is more dangerous still, because you've lost the ability to immediately get air or oxygen by going to the surface if something goes wrong. As an OW diver, you can at least get to the surface.

I'm also a private pilot, and I've heard the argument that "flying a private plane is completely safe." Well, its not. Flying is dangerous, more dangerous than driving. But it’s a risk I'm willing to take, since I know that I'm a careful pilot. But I know that I’m taking more of a risk than the average person whenever I fly, and something could always go wrong. I also realize that when I'm in an OW dive.

And cave diving is exactly the same: you’re taking a risk, but if you do it, its worth it to you. But you’re still taking that risk.

 

[Teknadv3x]

Cave Diver, kudos on your last post. Very well thought out and may I say the delivery was precise and to the point. Who was your cave inst. ? He would be proud.

Either your one of us and you understand it; or you aren't and you don't

Dave

 

[MikeFerrara]

UGA,

You're right. Diving isn't safe and diving in an overhead is less safe. However, safe is realative. I do feel I'm more safe in a cave than many are in OW. It's not just the riskd but how they are managed and you're abulity to do so.

I think cave divers point wasn't that ir's safe but that it isn't fool-hardy. We don't cave dive to try to get on the edge and cheat death. We try to understand the risks, prepare for them and dive within the limits of our equipment, experience and ability. We have every intention of returning from every dive.

 

[Cave Diver]

UGA once bubbled...


With all due respect (and I do have a great deal of respect for you after reading your recent posts), it's a dangerous argument to say that cave diving is no more dangerous than OW diving. If you really think that, you're ignoring reality.

It's really more a statement about management of risks. Of course anytime that you don't have direct access to the surface it increases the danger. But that is also the same reason for redundant air supplies and equipment and increased training.

People doing this type of diving are generally much more aware of the dangers and as such take greater care to manage them.

IMO, it's that awareness and management that brings the safety factor back on par.

As I once read, life itself is dangerous. So dangerous in fact that no one has ever gotten out alive.

The reality is, that there are not many tech divers out there who don't know and take care to manage the risks. There are however a lot of OW divers out there who aren't fully aware of diving beyond their limitations because no one has ever really told them.

Hope that clarifies my statement for you somewhat.

 

[Cave Diver]

Teknadv3x once bubbled...
Cave Diver, kudos on your last post. Very well thought out and may I say the delivery was precise and to the point. Who was your cave inst. ? He would be proud.

Either your one of us and you understand it; or you aren't and you don't

Dave

Thanks Dave. I'm glad I got to the point, sometimes I've been known to take the long way around. I took my NACD course from Mike O'Leary.

Nice quote. I've used that one from Tom Mount on several occassions myself. I first saw that in the prologue of "The Art of Safe Cave Diving." I think that prologue should be a "must read" for anyone considering O/E training.

 

[Brian Gilpin]

Thanks for the reply Cave Man. I guess our point of agreement is that training and risk assessment are important for all divers. I hope to do a little cavern diving in Yucatan this coming year myself. I dont beleive I could maintain enough sustained focus to ever do any serious tech diving.

Thanks for the great reply

Brian

Ps: Some freinds of mine went on a Discover Scuba Experience in Playa del Carmen a couple of years ago and since the ocean was rough he took them cave diving. They loved it until they had to decend through a narrow 30ft vertical shaft to get to the next area. I guess this is why I believe cave diving should not try to shed the dangerous label. It may scare away some who do not belong there.

 

[Cave Diver]

You're welcome Brian.

Brian Gilpin once bubbled...
Ps: Some freinds of mine went on a Discover Scuba Experience in Playa del Carmen a couple of years ago and since the ocean was rough he took them cave diving. They loved it until they had to decend through a narrow 30ft vertical shaft to get to the next area. I guess this is why I believe cave diving should not try to shed the dangerous label. It may scare away some who do not belong there.

Please don't misunderstand my meaning. Although I certified through PADI originally and trained all the way to DM through them, I dont necessarily agree with their stance that diving is for everyone.

I especially don't think certain types of diving are for everyone and I would strongly encourage anyone who doesnt feel comfortable with a dive of any type, to avoid it.

However, for those that are inclined to this (or any) type of diving, knowing and managing the risks can level the playing field in a manner of speaking.

I personally are against many of the swim throughs that DM's lead OW divers in and even most of the busses, planes, cars and boats that adorn our local lakes. Another place that makes me shudder is the accessibility of the caverns of Eden Rock in Grand Cayman and I'm not really fond of the lights installed in Vortex Springs.

In my opinion, it's things such as these that encourage people into an environment that they are not adequately prepared to deal with.

However that's a :box: I'll save for a later date.

And yes, I'll be the first to admit that I was one of those people who dove beyond their level of training on a few occassions. I'll also say that the more I learn, the more I realize how incredibly stupid some of those things were.

Thankfully, doing so encouraged me to seek out the proper training rather than to decide if I did one dive, then two would be no problem.

I've gotten a lot of excellent training and had some very good diving mentors and role models. I've been very fortunate in that respect and I hope I can pass some of that to others along the way.

 

[scubapup]

I usually don't post a lot of things on the board but I just had to say:

What a shame that what started out as a report of such a tragic accident with condolences offered to the family turned into a debate of sorts about the dangers of cave diving.

This family will be remembered in my prayers.