VEO 250 Dive Computer

[Oceanic Cust. Svc.]

Sorry for the delay in replying here. I was out of the country conducting service seminars when Doug asked me to look into and respond to this post. After reading the post I met with our manufacturing partners to see what details they could provide regarding this issue. After going over the failure analysis report I learned that of the handful of computers returned for this issue, nearly every case was the result of a defective/dead battery. On a voltmeter most of the batteries showed good, however, when the batteries were tested under a load they failed. The same issue happened to me a few weeks ago during a routine service on my car. My battery had no problem starting the car, however, when the mechanic tested it under a load it if failed. Thus it was replaced it so Mr. Murphy wouldn’t make an uninvited appearance. It stinks, no matter how reliable of a product we build we are always at the mercy of battery manufactures. With tens of thousands of units in the field, and only a handful being retuned with reported problem over the last six years I can confidently say this is not a chronic problem with the Veo computers.

We do not outsource digital instrument repairs. Every digital instrument is designed, manufactured, and repaired here in our San Leandro, CA factory. Our highly trained and experienced technicians can identify and repair nearly any problem, and if they can’t the engineers who originally designed the product are just a few offices away. If you experience a malfunction with any of our products please don’t hesitate to give us a call, and we will make the necessary arrangements to get it resolved quickly for you.

The Veo 250 in question needs to returned to the factory for evaluation before I make any type of comment. Once we receive the computer we will forward it to our manufacturing department for evaluation. After analysis, manufacturing will disassemble the module down to the bare assemblies (mother board, display board, lower housing) which they will inspect and qualify to the same standards as our new components. They will then reassemble the Veo 250 module using new sub-components (chips, transducers, ect.), and will send the rebuilt module through the same rigorous QC process that our new computer modules undergo before delivering it back to us. This Full Service Calibration process is used for repairs of all computer models, and depending on the product may take 90 days for complete. In the interest of time we typically replace malfunctioning units with a different re-qualified unit to ensure prompt turnaround. Please contact us directly to obtain a Return Authorization number to bring the Veo 250 back to the factory for evaluation and service.

As mentioned in prior post, I don’t post here often. It’s not because I have anything to hide; as those of you who have talked to me or my staff know, we are straight shooters. We just devote most of our time to covering the phones, processing returns, and providing the highest level of customer service possible for each and every interaction. So, again if you have an issue please contact us directly so we may resolve it for you. Rest assured that every item which we receive is documented and analyzed to assist in the never-ending quest for the perfect product

Ron Landess
Customer Service Manager
Oceanic / Aeris / Hollis
2002 Davis St.
San Leandro, CA. 94577
Phone 510-562-0500
Toll Free 800-435-3483
Fax 510-569-5404

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Comment from the peanut gallery to Oceanic,

If you have a problem with a battery vendor or defective batteries (seems to be the track you are taking), why charge $120 to tell someone that. Why don't you just endorse a specific brand and let the users spend $5 to diagnose the problem.

These seems like a cheap and easy way to handle the problem, unless there is more to it than "defective" batteries.

 

[scubadon64]

Sorry, I don't buy the "weak" battery response at all nor does any one else I've talked to. First, when I talked to the Oceanic tech, he said the issue was caused by a hardware failure and my computer needed to be returned for repair. There was no mention of any battery related issues. Now you say it's not a hardware failure but just bad batteries but you want us to send them in and pay $120. Yikes!

My issue happened in the middle of the week, and after the issue happened, and I reset the date, the computer continued to function and never indicated an issue with the battery. I replaced the batteries each time I go on a major trip with new batteries. There are also several other flaws in "bad battery" assumption. First, if the computer cannot detect a battery is weak or bad, then the battery indicator is totally useless. And if it leads to loss saturation levels without any notice, it down right dangerous. The battery is under a load when the computer is on, which is when the indicator is on. This bad battery assumptions sounds more like a "load" of you know what. Also, if Oceanic built computers around batteries that can not be trusted, then that's a bad decision and design on Oceanics part. I typically only buy Energizer or Duracell batteries from stores with high battery turnover and dates on the packages. Like I said, I had Prodigy computers for years, and they never had these kind of "bad" battery issues. So the Prodigy computers were able to function properly but not these VEO computers is what you are telling us? Basically, you need to replace the batteries after every dive?

And charging people $120 to tell them their batteries are bad is down right criminal. Wow, I've bragged about my Oceanic gear for years, boy do I feel like an idiot now. It won't happen again, just the opposite.

I can't determine what's worse, thinking your customers are dumb enough to believe this kind of a response or you actually built a computer that cannot be trusted because it can't determine whether a battey is good or not.

And by the way, not sure what kind of car you have, but I recently had to replace my battery in my 2004 Dodge pickup, and yes the check engine light came on to let me know that it was about to go bad before it actually failed so I could get a new battery installed before it left me stranded.
I've had batteries fail in the past after extremely cold nights with little or no failure, but we are talking about sunny 80+ degree weather on tropical Bonaire.

 

[Doug Krause]

The point is, that most of what we have seen back here have been related to the battery - please also read that Ron nor anyone else is able to diagnose a problem reported here. I suggest, if you have any sort of problem that is not easily explained by another user, ourselves, or by simply swapping out a battery, it ultimately needs to come back here for evaluation and repair.

 

[danwig]

You have got to be kidding with the battery garbage... that is what I chalked it up to first time so I didn't bother reporting it (BTW... check my location and guess what industry I have worked in for 20 years). After new batteries, and after the failure the computer worked 22 more dives and the FLY period without the issue... so scrap that idea, but I can risk a vacation day diving if it does it yet again. And so its $120 and you have no idea about any problem like this... thanks, but no thanks, I know what that means... you giving me another one that will probably have the same issue shortly and me out the $120 plus. If you guys are so thorough, how come the freaking download cable doesn't match the pins (a point someone else noted that I also verified), and when I change the setting in Oceanlog to VEO250 it gets a divide by zero error (latest version)...

Wow.. its going to be ugly around here Doug.. hope no one asks about Oceanic computers soon, you dont really have a fan club going here (and I used to be a huge supporter...)

 

[scubadon64]

I wonder who exactly these fantom "manufacturing partners" are and where they get their parts from. Could it be the same ones putting deadly chemicals in our dog food, tainting children toys with toxic materials, covering up faulty throttling systems... I wouldn't trust some of these guys to tell any one the truth. I expect Oceanic has farmed out the production to some third party who standards may be a bit low.

Also, how many components do these computers have that could be replaced? Display, memory chip, buttons, processor chip? Usually components are soldered together and trying to remove them and replace them is risky business. It better just to replace the motherboard with new components already attached.

And for $120 you get a refurbished unit that you have no idea what may have happened to it in the past or how it was treated. My computers stay inside my house when not in use in their own storage container and I always carry them on planes and never pack them with other gear.

And if these unit are go through a rigorous QC process, then why have people had to have their "serviced" unit sent back again within a year, and some times on the first dive.

Since you have a policy which basically charges your loyal customers $120 to get any thing resolved, I don't expect many people are willing to invest that much money in fixing a computer that is a couple years old when they can invest the same money in a new computer ( probably another manufacturer) and when the "reparied" unit may just fail again in another year out of waranty again. So your policy discourages people from returning them for repairs and therefore the assumption that there are no issues because only a "few" people have returned computers appears to be a false premise.

Again, if you designed your computers based batteries that can't be trusted and Oceanic is at "mercy of battery manufactures", the Oceanic screwed up big time. I'm sure Energizer and Duracell would love to know that your problem are being blamed on them.

 

[scubadon64]

Ron says he doesn't have any thing to hide, so let us take him for his word. There are several questions with no responses. Oceanic can be a industry leader or a follower, just trying to keep up with whatever other are doing.

1. Can the firmware/software be updated without rebuilding the computer?
2. Since there were new levels of firmware, please provide a list of defects which were fixed in each firmware level. It's a common practice for hardware manufactures to document the contents of new firmware levels in a readme.txt file when they release new levels.
3. Why is the original warranty only good for two years?
4. If the rebuilt modules are using new sub-components and go through rigorous QC process, then why is service warranty not at least 2 years like the new warranty? This would lead one to believe the rebuilt units are not as good as new units.
5. What is the Full calibration process and why does it take up to 90 days?
6. Has there been any updates to the cable to resolve the issue with the pin alignment described above?
7. Why was I told my module had a hardware failure before Oceanic even took the time to look test the module?
8. If Oceanic has so few computers returned for repairs, why not just give customer new replacement computers rather than trying to rebuild old ones especially if they are charging $120 for the rebuilt computers.
9. You mentioned your team devotes most of your time to answering phones and processing returns. This sounds like you have a full time job just trying to keep up with the call volume for service related issues. If you don't have any quality related issues, then why are is your team booked full time just answering the phone and processing returns? Are you under staffed?
10. Typically what type of hardware failure is most common?
11. There were multiple people posting issues which were similiar but not exactly the same and I don't think all of the issues were related to the Veo 250 computer. Your response above sounds like it only addressed my initial issue? Is this true, or can the "bad" battery cause different symptons?
12. In cars, typically the greatest load is placed on a battery when the car is started. I would assume the same is true for the computer. When the computer first starts up is goes through a diagnostic mode first. Is this not the time when the load it the greatest?
13. I've had many car batteries "load" tested over the years. This process usually requires the car battery to first to be charged and then to be placed under a "load" and then messure how quickly the battery returns to a "normal" state. Since these button batteries can not be recharged, it seems like it would be a bit difficult to test the load. What are you using to load test these button batteries, and have you contacted the manufacture concerning defective batteries?

It's been months since I've used my computers, therefore load testing them at this point would probably not be a valid test of the state of the battery months ago.

 

[D_B]

I have a thought on batteries .. your car battery is not tested by measuring how fast it comes back after a load, it is tested by seeing if it can sustain the rated load (1/2 the cold CCA) for 15 seconds without dropping below 9.6v , or it is done with a computerized tester that measures the resistance and voltage and calculates the cold CCA

Some button batteries have what's called a Pulse Duty rating ... they have two ratings, sustained current flow, and momentary "pulse" current flow ...

Sony, Panasonic, (and one other company) make batteries with such a rating and are capable of handling a momentary increase of current over the normal rating

I've measured battery voltages before and I think there might be only a slight difference between a new one and the few days old one .. 3.0something verses 3.1

The problem is most likely the voltage while loaded, not the unloaded or open circuit voltage. Or to say it a different way, some batteries have too high of internal resistance to work properly in equipment that uses the battery for short high power bursts, even if the overall average power drain is low.

A well designed system would do the battery voltage test while under load. It sounds like the VEO100 does not do this, and therefore gives a falsely optimistic battery charge indicator. You could do a manual test of this sort by measuring the battery voltage while it is loaded with a 100 ohm resistor (about 30mA of current draw). If the "good" vs "bad" battery doesn't show up under that test, then try 50 ohms/60mA loads.

The Pelagic/Oceanic computers that use 1/2AA Lithium batteries also have this sort of problem. In that case, I've found that any battery that the manufacturer has rated for "pulsed duty" will work, while the ones designed only to supply very low levels of current for a long time to realtime computer clocks do not work.

Charlie Allen

I found this info on Sony CR2450 batteries ...

Sony CR2450 Specifications
3V ... Nominal Voltage
2.5Ｖ 600mAh ... Nominal Capacity (2.5V cutoff)
0.4mA ... Recommended Continuous Drain
24mA ... Recommended Pulse Drain


And Panasonic ...

Two Design Types—BR & CR:
Panasonic coin type lithium batteries are available in two types: BR series, poly carbon mono-fluoride lithium batteries for uses requiring extended reliability and safety, and CR series, manganese dioxide lithium batteries for uses requiring high voltage and strong load pulse characteristics.

... that is why only batteries that are rated for pulse duty are recommended by Oceanic







This may not be any relation to your problem

 

[vondo]

I have a thought on batteries .. your car battery is not tested by measuring how fast it comes back after a load, it is tested by seeing if it can sustain the rated load (1/2 the cold CCA) for 15 seconds without dropping below 9.6v , or it is done with a computerized tester that measures the resistance and voltage and calculates the cold CCA

Some button batteries have what's called a Pulse Duty rating ... they have two ratings, sustained current flow, and momentary "pulse" current flow ...

Sony, Panasonic, (and one other company) make batteries with such a rating and are capable of handling a momentary increase of current over the normal rating








... that is why only batteries that are rated for pulse duty are recommended by Oceanic







This may not be any relation to your problem

Which is interesting. Because I used a Sony or Panny battery and had my VEO 200 immediately crap out. Switched over to Energizer, I think and it's much better. Although the last time I turned it on, it showed one flashing bar for a bit. Then went to three bars.

Put me on the list of those not really buying this battery explanation.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I suspect the battery issue is a symptom, not the cause.

If it was the cause, they could just say use brand x model y and be done with it and put all the blame on the battery vendors. Instead, they are stonewalling and hoping this will fade away.

Too bad, I really like my 3 oceanic computers and have recommended them to many others, in person and on SB. Guess I need to rethink that one.