Valve (not a) drill

[Kevrumbo]

you don't need to try to indicate where its broken in this situation. just donate and thumb.

Correct [that was a question in the Tech 1 Class I just audited] . . . "Do you tap Left Side and Right Side and signal broken? No, last resort you signal Thumb-Up or Thumb-and-Forefinger Exit Out immediately and donate the Long Hose. . ."

 

[cerich]

GUE teaches that there are 9 failures. They are taught in Tech 1 and Cave 1.

So you don't think the rest of his rather extensive list are failures? What do ya do continue the dive because it's not on the GUE list?

 

[cerich]

OK guys I know this is not GUE procedure, however....

In a GUE course(and others) the sound of a failure is produced by the instr. purging a second stage on your left or right. Thus the sound is pretty loud and easy to tell what side is affected.

In REAL LIFE, the failure could be VERY loud or actually very soft. It WILL be much harder for real to determine which side your failure is on. Because of this I teach the first action in the case of a manifold/tank neck, valve?... noise behind your head failure is to isolate the manifold. This will conserve gas while you determine without a doubt if you can indeed isolate the offending piece of defective equipment(You do this by isolating the post you think it is, if that doesn't work try the other and if that doesn't work leave it ). If you stop the noise with isolating a post you then will open the isolator.

Reagrdless of outcome of valve drill, get teams attention, thumb dive. MY honest opion is that too much gas is lost going to the post first, then the other and then the isolator.

OK, now I'm ready for everyone to argue why I'm wrong

 

[lamont]

So you don't think the rest of his rather extensive list are failures? What do ya do continue the dive because it's not on the GUE list?

its all covered in that list:

#1: right side, shutdown stops the gas flow, fixable
#2: right side, shutdown stops the gas flow, unfixable
#3: right side, shutdown doesn't stop the gas flow, isolatable
#4: left side, shutdown stops the gas flow, fixable
#5: left side, shutdown stops the gas flow, unfixable
#6: left side, shutdown doesn't stop the gas flow, isolatable
#7: right side, thought it was left
#8: left side, thought it was right
#9: blown isolator

#1+4 could be a fixable free-flow, or a poorly seated reg, etc
#2+5 could be IP creep, blown DIN o-ring, blown LP hose, etc
#3+6 are tank neck o-rings, manifold o-rings and burst disks
#7+8 are all the above, but you guessed wrong about the side its on
#9 is catastrophic failure of the isolator valve itself

The 9 failures according to GUE are categorized according to your response to them, not according to the actual root cause.

 

[cerich]

Correct [that was a question in the Tech 1 Class I just audited] . . . "Do you tap Left Side and Right Side and signal broken? No, last resort you signal Thumb-Up or Thumb-and-Forefinger Exit Out immediately and donate the Long Hose. . ."

That doesn't make sense, just because something is broken doesn't mean you aren't getting gas. Many failures will take some time before the cylinder is empty. You take care of the problem if possible, get teams attention, thumb dive. They had better position you in center of team where you will be watched like a stripper on a navy ship. Use your gas until not practical and then have a team member donate. The most important aspect of a gas lose situation is to maximize the gas your team has available. It's stupid to isolate a problem the swim out on your buddies gas putting you both in a more dangerous situation.

Ok Guess you can flame me on this too...

But do me a favor, keep in mind I'm GUE trained as well (Cave1), so please don't just quote the "book", JJ, D Rhea or G3 but tell me where my thinking is off. I'll change if you can show me.

 

[cerich]

its all covered in that list:

#1: right side, shutdown stops the gas flow, fixable
#2: right side, shutdown stops the gas flow, unfixable
#3: right side, shutdown doesn't stop the gas flow, isolatable
#4: left side, shutdown stops the gas flow, fixable
#5: left side, shutdown stops the gas flow, unfixable
#6: left side, shutdown doesn't stop the gas flow, isolatable
#7: right side, thought it was left
#8: left side, thought it was right
#9: blown isolator

#1+4 could be a fixable free-flow, or a poorly seated reg, etc
#2+5 could be IP creep, blown DIN o-ring, blown LP hose, etc
#3+6 are tank neck o-rings, manifold o-rings and burst disks
#7+8 are all the above, but you guessed wrong about the side its on
#9 is catastrophic failure of the isolator valve itself

The 9 failures according to GUE are categorized according to your response to them, not according to the actual root cause.

I know that I:huh: was teasing!

 

[Kevrumbo]

9. Manifold isolation valve failure – hear gas flow, close right post valve, still hear gas flow, close manifold isolation valve, still hear gas flow, ask buddy to check, buddy indicates on their manifold where the problem is and gestures a broken signal. The manifold isolation valve is not fixable and gas will drain continuously from this orifice. Diver will share gas with buddy at this time. Procedure is to abort dive and go on buddy’s primary regulator, as it will be an air-sharing situation.

you don't need to try to indicate where its broken in this situation. just donate and thumb.

Correct [that was a question in the Tech 1 Class I just audited] . . . "Do you tap Left Side and Right Side and signal broken? No, last resort you signal Thumb-Up or Thumb-and-Forefinger Exit Out immediately and donate the Long Hose. . ."

The above protocol/procedure is in context with Failure #9: Don't know where the Failure is or a sheared-off Isolator Knob.

That doesn't make sense, just because something is broken doesn't mean you aren't getting gas. Many failures will take some time before the cylinder is empty. You take care of the problem if possible, get teams attention, thumb dive. They had better position you in center of team where you will be watched like a stripper on a navy ship. Use your gas until not practical and then have a team member donate. The most important aspect of a gas lose situation is to maximize the gas your team has available. It's stupid to isolate a problem the swim out on your buddies gas putting you both in a more dangerous situation.
Ok Guess you can flame me on this too...
But do me a favor, keep in mind I'm GUE trained as well (Cave1), so please don't just quote the "book", JJ, D Rhea or G3 but tell me where my thinking is off. I'll change if you can show me.

With regard to Failure #9, just keep it simple: get the victim moving to the Exit or start the Free-Ascent with proper team positioning; be prepared to donate the long hose (if you haven't done so already) as soon as his gas supply is exhausted. . .

 

[plankspanker]

If there is no way to stop the gas leak why not donate, then start the exit and have the person with the issue holding the donated reg but breathing off his own reg until his gas runs out, then he could go to the donated reg without having to hold up the exit anymore?

 

[lamont]

OK guys I know this is not GUE procedure, however....

In a GUE course(and others) the sound of a failure is produced by the instr. purging a second stage on your left or right. Thus the sound is pretty loud and easy to tell what side is affected.

In REAL LIFE, the failure could be VERY loud or actually very soft. It WILL be much harder for real to determine which side your failure is on. Because of this I teach the first action in the case of a manifold/tank neck, valve?... noise behind your head failure is to isolate the manifold. This will conserve gas while you determine without a doubt if you can indeed isolate the offending piece of defective equipment(You do this by isolating the post you think it is, if that doesn't work try the other and if that doesn't work leave it ). If you stop the noise with isolating a post you then will open the isolator.

Reagrdless of outcome of valve drill, get teams attention, thumb dive. MY honest opion is that too much gas is lost going to the post first, then the other and then the isolator.

OK, now I'm ready for everyone to argue why I'm wrong

I believe the answer to that is that you're optimizing for the unusual case where its a failure requiring isolation, or where you can't figure out which side the failure is on and fix it.

As a solo diver it makes more sense to go for the isolator first, since that way you know you've got at least half your gas protected, because your worst-case really sucks. As a team diver, your worst case is just going out the whole way on your buddies backgas -- so prioritize. Its most likely the right post, since that is the working post, and is most likely something you can stop by turning off the post, so that should be your first reaction. By the time you're figuring out that didn't do the job your buddy should be back there and should fix it.

And really, if you've got a catstrophic gas loss that requires isolation, then your buddy should have noticed it before you've even gone for a post.

 

[limeyx]

If there is no way to stop the gas leak why not donate, then start the exit and have the person with the issue holding the donated reg but breathing off his own reg until his gas runs out, then he could go to the donated reg without having to hold up the exit anymore?

That's a possibility, but consider

1) it's best to keep things "simple" -- certainly to begin with. Donate the hose and get out of the water.

2) what if the person drops the reg, or his gas runs out at the worst possible time? Donate the hose and get out of the water.