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Thanks, ok - so the ration was legal.
Utah: Boy Scout drowns diving in Bear Lake
- Thread starter DandyDon
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If there were only two or three student divers, it would appear that the ratios conformed to standards, but again, details are sparse. It's not entirely clear what the role of the scoutmaster was during the dive. If he was indeed a student with an emergency of his own that caused him to surface, for example, that might change the way we would analyze the incident.
While the ratios appear to have been within standards many of us also consider the conditions, ages of the students, their comfort in the water, and our own personal standards as well. I will not do discovers in Open Water. That is a personal choice I have made. There is one site I train at that has an area where I would consider doing a discover but would never take more than 2 people in.
Some instructors also have different "rules" for kids vs adults. Adults I will take 4 in the pool. Kids 14-17 I will take 4 IF they all seem mature enough and they have shown me during the swim qualification we require for a discovery type experience they will be ok. Under 14 never more than 2. This is all in the pool.
OW no one waits on the bottom in any basic class. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would intentionally leave a student down let alone a discover. When one surfaces everyone comes up. This is why the first two dives I prefer to take one buddy pair at a time. Then will consider combining a group for the last two - conditions permitting. I'd like to know just what conditions were at the time of this. If the instructor could not see the two left down at all times from the surface he was definitely not in control of them. If he could not reach out and physicially touch two discover participants in open water at all times "I " would not consider it to be in control of them.
Going just by what was posted to do this I'd have wanted a DM or AI with me. Had one had an issue as it SEEMS one did everyone would have come up with me taking control of the diver with the problem and the assistant immediately following with the other two. No one would have been left underwater.
Going from the one report that Don posted an exerpt from IF accurate would also indicate another serious lack of judgment in allowing a student to go back to shore alone. Proper procedure if that person surfaced because of a problem is to escort them all the way back onto land. It is conceivable that while the instructor was heading back down the diver on the surface could have panicked, had a heart attack, or other issue and died before reaching shore. Then you'd have two fatalities.
I know a lot of what if's here. But I see that as part of the purpose for this forum. Somehow, somewhere, something broke. Judgment is a big issue here. Not just for new divers but for other instructors. We can get complacent and begin to take some things for granted when things have been going well for a long time. Then one incident can happen to bring reality back into focus as to how dangerous some aspects of this activity are. It may be a student who previously had no issues and bolts on the last checkout because a bluegill startled them by pecking their mask. No harm is done other than to their ego. It is still kind of nerve racking to see.
Then you have something like this happen the entire worlds of many are turned upside down in an instant for a very long time. Risk management should include preparing for what if's like this and asking if it would not be more prudent to go more conservative in some areas. I know I will think of this the next time I have a discover or have kids in a class.
Some instructors also have different "rules" for kids vs adults. Adults I will take 4 in the pool. Kids 14-17 I will take 4 IF they all seem mature enough and they have shown me during the swim qualification we require for a discovery type experience they will be ok. Under 14 never more than 2. This is all in the pool.
OW no one waits on the bottom in any basic class. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would intentionally leave a student down let alone a discover. When one surfaces everyone comes up. This is why the first two dives I prefer to take one buddy pair at a time. Then will consider combining a group for the last two - conditions permitting. I'd like to know just what conditions were at the time of this. If the instructor could not see the two left down at all times from the surface he was definitely not in control of them. If he could not reach out and physicially touch two discover participants in open water at all times "I " would not consider it to be in control of them.
Going just by what was posted to do this I'd have wanted a DM or AI with me. Had one had an issue as it SEEMS one did everyone would have come up with me taking control of the diver with the problem and the assistant immediately following with the other two. No one would have been left underwater.
Going from the one report that Don posted an exerpt from IF accurate would also indicate another serious lack of judgment in allowing a student to go back to shore alone. Proper procedure if that person surfaced because of a problem is to escort them all the way back onto land. It is conceivable that while the instructor was heading back down the diver on the surface could have panicked, had a heart attack, or other issue and died before reaching shore. Then you'd have two fatalities.
I know a lot of what if's here. But I see that as part of the purpose for this forum. Somehow, somewhere, something broke. Judgment is a big issue here. Not just for new divers but for other instructors. We can get complacent and begin to take some things for granted when things have been going well for a long time. Then one incident can happen to bring reality back into focus as to how dangerous some aspects of this activity are. It may be a student who previously had no issues and bolts on the last checkout because a bluegill startled them by pecking their mask. No harm is done other than to their ego. It is still kind of nerve racking to see.
Then you have something like this happen the entire worlds of many are turned upside down in an instant for a very long time. Risk management should include preparing for what if's like this and asking if it would not be more prudent to go more conservative in some areas. I know I will think of this the next time I have a discover or have kids in a class.
Some insight to the location. At the camp the slop is extremely gentle and the bottom composition is mostly sandlike and gravel. As you venture further from shore the sand turns to silt, but you have to go out a ways. The rope mentioned is a 'guideline' or route that is typically used much like a boundry line. There were a few 'attractions' along the route.
This lake is notorious for its afternoon winds. I try to be out of the water around 2:00 or the entry exit could get interesting. [-]I have no knowledge of the weather pattern for that day[/-]. It was reportly choppy at the time of the accident. When I was involved with the program we tried to be out around noon because of the other activities the scouts needed to attend. Visibilty can range anywhere from 4-40 feet depending on weather and number of swimmers in the water.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
I can not find the news article but one I read reported the diver surfaced and them submerged.
Last edited:
cgvmer
Contributor
My prays go out to the boy's parents and friends.
This is upsetting on many levels.
The BSA actually has a very good history with water related safety, their self managed lifeguard program is comparable to the Red Cross lifeguard program, and their waterfront procedures tend to be much more restrictive that other groups. This being said the BSA only allow Scuba diving as a program allowed for Boy Scouts (age 10+-17) less than 2 years ago. Prior to this it was only allowed for venturers(ages 14-21). The restrictions placed on these programs is still pretty tight, primarily pushing the responsibility to a recognized training agency, with strong recommendations to contract this work not do the instructing my BSA staff. Scuba MB notes
The concern is the BSA could easily shutdown ALL scuba related programs to limit it's liability.
This is upsetting on many levels.
The BSA actually has a very good history with water related safety, their self managed lifeguard program is comparable to the Red Cross lifeguard program, and their waterfront procedures tend to be much more restrictive that other groups. This being said the BSA only allow Scuba diving as a program allowed for Boy Scouts (age 10+-17) less than 2 years ago. Prior to this it was only allowed for venturers(ages 14-21). The restrictions placed on these programs is still pretty tight, primarily pushing the responsibility to a recognized training agency, with strong recommendations to contract this work not do the instructing my BSA staff. Scuba MB notes
The concern is the BSA could easily shutdown ALL scuba related programs to limit it's liability.
5513
Registered
A 12 year old boy scout died during a Discover Scuba session at Bear Lake, UT. He was missing from the group and located about 30 minutes later in 15 feet of water. The accident occurred at a lake side Boy Scout camp.
Boy Scout, 12, drowns in Bear Lake | Deseret News
Boy Scout, 12, drowns in Bear Lake | Deseret News
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I did a Discover Scuba in Bear Lake a few years ago from a BSA camp on the Western Shore. There the vis was horrible and we only had two adult students per instructor. Afterwards, a DM and I swam out a little over a mile to check out a wrecked sailing vessel and we didn't get a real thermo-cline until about 60 ft. By then we had derepmeT visibility and we aborted the dive. Yes, the BSA has an enviable safety record and their review process adds to that. Boy Scouts were allowed to Scubadive before the Scubadiving Merit Badge, but they had to be over 14. When they came out with the merit badge, they felt that they had to include all Scouts.
rsldonk
Contributor
I don't know about conditions that particular day, but when I dove at Bear Lake two weeks ago, at a site a couple of miles north of the Boy Scout camp, water temp was 65 at the surface with an abrupt thermocline at about 15 feet, where it dropped about 10 degrees and then progressively got colder with increased depth (at 60' it was 47 degrees). I don't know if this was a contributing factor without further information, but it would be interesting to find out. I'm actually surprised they would do a discover session at Bear Lake. I'm also interested in their equipment and what sort of thermal protection they were using. Viz was as good as I've ever seen at Bear Lake, about 40' (but we were the only two divers to be in the water that day and both of us know how to keep off the bottom and not kick up silt).
Ayisha
Contributor
bold added
Quero, this was not a confined open water environment, was it? Did you mean to say that the PADI DSD ratio is 1 to 4 in o/w? Or is it 1 to 4 in a pool or similar confined environment?
Also, is there any difference in the ratios in regard to children?
I do understand that the main concern is the loss of control over and proximity to the 2 or maybe even all 3 divers, but just asking for clarification, thanks.
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