Utah: Boy Scout drowns diving in Bear Lake

[Keith.M]

I think going to 18 would be a bit drastic.

We allow minors to get a drivers license at 16 which is allowing them to take on a huge responsibility at that age.

 

[drrich2]

Since minimum age for diving is seen as related to current topic, a question. Any comparative serious injury and fatality rate data vs. bicycling, tree climbing, back yard wrestling, varied school sports, teen driving and so forth?

Or even compared to adult diver fatality rates?

 

[diving4ever]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The post quoted here has been moderated. The follow-up post next contains a very similar response.

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At what age a certain activity is safe is a public policy question we wrestle with all the time: driving, drinking, diving, working, having sex, etc. Opinions on these issues are going to vary from person to person and hyperbolic statements about a "nanny state” are just silly. Especially since the whole "nanny state" thing is about treating adults like children...and the issue here is actual children.

I think the real issue may be that you believe parents can/should get to decide what is safe for their children, as opposed to a policy set by the government or a licensing body (like Padi). That is a reasonable and commonly held point of view. It’s not mine. I don't really care what parents think about this. I also don't care what parents think about vaccines, or how to teach common core in school. When discussing safety, individual experience and anecdotes have limited value.

The age at which a person should be able to dive (and under what circumstances) should be data driven. Can we demonstrate that they are at greater risk? Can they be expected to act responsibly--and under what degree of stress? Until we have a more data and a more complete understanding, we should still be able to have a civil conversation with people whose experience and/or risk tolerance differs from our own.

 

[packrat12]

The age at which a person should be able to dive (and under what circumstances) should be data driven. Can we demonstrate that they are at greater risk? Can they be expected to act responsibly--and under what degree of stress? Until we have a more data and a more complete understanding, we should still be able to have a civil conversation with people whose experience and/or risk tolerance differs from our own.

The problem is that we have become a society where any injury/death is intolerable. There are risks to everything we do. We know for a fact that driving is the most likely cause of death to those under 25 (I do not remember the specific age but it is youth/young adult). We know that this rate is very high. Do we not allow them to drive because of this? Why is it acceptable in this case but not in others?

Your statement is spot on when you said "people whose experience and/or risk tolerance differs from our own". When I grew up, parents would often say "go play in the street"... so I did. The concept of danger/risk was much different. We are moving to a point where risk is not acceptable in any circumstance. That is driving us to the 'nanny state', which is a term I have now used only a handful of times but it applies. Why, when there are different experiences/risk tolerance, is it not up to the parents/children relation to determine what is acceptable? When you say 'I also don't care what parents think about vaccines', I can say I have picked up my child from her high chair limp, unconscious and not breathing after a vaccine incident. We, with the doctors, believed that it was one of them specifically. She did not get the booster for it until later in life. Can it be proven, no but it was known to the doctor that his has happened to others. All medications have risks, typically including death.

Parents absolutely need a role in what is allowable for their children. Diving has been a part of my life since I was young, and it became a part of my daughters. What is right for your child, or Ken's if he has one, is not necessarily right for mine. He may not agree with 10 being the age of Jr OW but without excessive injury/loss, he has no stature in overriding my decision to have my daughter dive. If he does not like it, do not teach youth, do not allow his children to dive etc, but DO NOT TELL ME mine should not. Diving since the early 80's at least, has been 12 for full open water or the later implementation of Jr OW at 10-15. The difference was that when I learned in the 80's, I was cave diving, I was deep diving and other 'harder' dives without parental guidance or support. At least the Jr OW requires a parent until 15. Now I can guide my child's development.

As for your comment 'Can they be expected to act responsibly--and under what degree of stress' - Sorry I have seen adults fail this and children pass. Nobody will know how they will react until put under stress.

Overall, I think that we see very few incidents for child diver injury/death when we look at all of the incidents that are reported here. We need to be aware of the tendencies to limit accountability and exposure for the sake of perceived safety when the risks are acceptable to those involved.

 

[DandyDon]

I think going to 18 would be a bit drastic.

We allow minors to get a drivers license at 16 which is allowing them to take on a huge responsibility at that age.

I got mine at 14, and I was a pretty good kid driver. I'd been driving tractors, pickups, and cars around my part of the county for a few years. Scuba is more challenging, I think.

It's not that straight forward tho, I guess. Some good arguments have been presented.

 

[redacted]

4. I'm probably overly-sensitive to this (more so than usual) because we just had a 15-year-old fatality out here in LA recently but . . . Why are we as an industry still so gung-ho to put underage children in life-threatening situations? I would REALLY like to see Jr. OW abolished (grandfather in all current Jr. OWs) and raise the minimum cert age to the age of majority, which is 18.

Rant over (for now).


- Ken

Got any data?

BTW, the age of majority is not 18 in all states.

 

[Altamira]

The death of a child for any reason is a tragedy. However, those that would advocate not allowing scuba training until age 16-18 for safety reasons should perhaps focus their attention and regulatory aspirations on junior high and high school football programs that lead to an unbelieveable number of injuries/deaths. Now there is a sport that has a very long history of serious injuries and deaths, but in Texas, it would be easier to ban sex than football. Go figure!

 

[scagrotto]

From what I have read (fair disclosure I am a trial lawyer

I didn't want to thank or like that post, but I think it deserves some kind of award.

Why are we a$ an indu$try $till $o gung-ho to put underage children in life-threatening $ituation$?

I have no idea.

Well, to be fair, I imagine there was a fair amount of pressure from people who thought they should be able to take their 12 year old kids diving with them.

 

[archer1960]

Got any data?

BTW, the age of majority is not 18 in all states.

Yes it is, because it's a legal definition of when you're considered to be an adult and allowed to do things like sign contracts, and is driven primarily by federal law. If you're thinking of the age of consent, then you're correct.

 

[The Chairman]

Age of Majority by State (Google is your friend From: American Funds )

Alabama	10/01/1986	21	21
Alaska	01/01/1991	18–unlimited	21
Arizona	09/30/1988	18 or 21	21
Arkansas	03/21/1985	18–21	21
California	01/01/1985	18–25	18
Colorado	07/01/1984	21	21
Connecticut	10/01/1995	21	21
Delaware	06/26/1996	18 or 21	21
District of Columbia	03/12/1986	18 or 21	18
Florida	10/01/1985	21	21
Georgia	07/01/1990	21	21
Hawaii	07/01/1985	18 or 21	21
Idaho	07/01/1984	18 or 21	21
Illinois	07/01/1986	18 or 21	21
Indiana	07/01/1989	21	21
Iowa	07/01/1986	21	21
Kansas	07/01/1985	18 or 21	21
Kentucky	07/15/1986	18	18
Louisiana	01/01/1988	18	18
Maine	08/04/1988	18–21	18
Maryland	07/01/1989	18 or 21	21
Massachusetts	01/30/1987	18 or 21	21
Michigan	12/29/1998	18 or 21	18
Minnesota	01/01/1986	18 or 21	21
Mississippi	01/01/1995	18 or 21	21
Missouri	09/28/1985	18 or 21	21
Montana	10/01/1989	18 or 21	21
Nebraska	07/15/1992	19 or 21	21
Nevada	07/01/1985	18–25	18
New Hampshire	07/30/1985	18 or 21	21
New Jersey	07/01/1987	18 or 21	21
New Mexico	07/01/1989	18 or 21	21
New York	01/01/1997	18 or 21	21
North Carolina	10/01/1987	18–21	21
North Dakota	07/01/1985	18 or 21	21
Ohio	05/07/1986	18–21	21
Oklahoma	11/01/1986	18 or 21	18
Oregon	01/01/1986	18 or 21	21
Pennsylvania	12/16/1992	18 or 21–25	21
Rhode Island	07/23/1998	18 or 21	21
South Carolina	08/08/2002	21	21
South Dakota	07/01/1986	18	18
Tennessee	10/01/1992	21–25	21
Texas	09/01/1995	18 or 21	21
Utah	07/01/1990	18 or 21	21
Vermont	07/01/2015	18 or 21	21
Virgin Islands	08/02/2001	18	18
Virginia	07/01/1988	18 or 21	18
Washington	07/01/1991	18–25	21
West Virginia	07/01/1986	21	21
Wisconsin	04/08/1988	21	21
Wyoming	05/22/1987	18 or 21	21

[TH="bgcolor: #E5EFF5"]State[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #E5EFF5"]Accounts Established On or After Date[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #E5EFF5"]Allowed Ages of Majority[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #E5EFF5"]Default Age of Majority[/TH]

So, the age of majority is not the same for all fifty states. Very few use 18 and this is mostly because of child support and alcohol consumption. I'm not sure how this figures into the discussion about what happened in Bear Lake. Please let's get back onto the topic at hand. If you want to discuss the minimum age for diving, please start a thread on it and post a link here for the rest of us. Thanks.