Utah: Boy Scout drowns diving in Bear Lake

[rsldonk]

bold added

Quero, this was not a confined open water environment, was it? Did you mean to say that the PADI DSD ratio is 1 to 4 in o/w? Or is it 1 to 4 in a pool or similar confined environment?

Also, is there any difference in the ratios in regard to children?

I do understand that the main concern is the loss of control over and proximity to the 2 or maybe even all 3 divers, but just asking for clarification, thanks.

Yes, this is hardly confined, the lake is quite large and almost 300 feet deep.

to give an idea,

The camp is on the far shore on the right of this photo.

 

[Quero]

Quero, this was not a confined open water environment, was it? Did you mean to say that the PADI DSD ratio is 1 to 4 in o/w? Or is it 1 to 4 in a pool or similar confined environment?

Also, is there any difference in the ratios in regard to children?

I do understand that the main concern is the loss of control over and proximity to the 2 or maybe even all 3 divers, but just asking for clarification, thanks.

Ayisha, rather than interpret standards for you, given that I'm not familiar with the site, I'll quote from the IM (with little changes in the formatting of the content because it uses tables, which are not supported here):

Confined open water is an open water site that offers swimming pool-like conditions with respect to clarity, calmness, and depth. It has both shallow water and water sufficiently deep to allow student divers to meet all skill performance requirements. Evaluate confined open water conditions carefully before each dive because a site may qualify as “pool-like” on a given day under certain conditions, but not qualify under others.

Ratios
You must apply continuous and sound judgment before, during and after the dive. It’s your professional responsibility to conduct a risk assessment by evaluating variables such as water conditions, temperature, visibility, water movement, entries and exits, ability of participants, certified assistants available, your and your assistant’s personal limitations, etc., to determine what ratio will fit the situation — reducing the ratio from the maximum if needed. Take into account changing variables and your ability to directly supervise and observe particpants. Reassess during the dive.

Participant-to-Instructor
PADI Member: Instructor-- Pool 8:1; Confined Open Water 4:1; Open Water 4:1; Additional OW Dive 4:1

PADI Member: Assistant Instructor-- Pool 8:1; Confined Open Water 4:1; Open Water (n/a); Additional OW Dive 4:1

PADI Member: DSD Leader-- Pool 4:1; Confined Open Water 2:1; Open Water (n/a); Additional OW Dive 2:1

PADI Member: Divemaster-- Pool 2:1; Confined Open Water (n/a); Open Water (n/a); Additional OW Dive 2:1

There are footnotes that I've not included stipulating how the use of assistants affects ratios and when an additional open water dive is allowable.

Diver Prerequisites
10 years old

 

[Ayisha]

Thank you Quero. That clarifies things. My question was regarding the use of the word "confined" o/w in this case.

So the ratios are exactly what you posted EXCEPT that only a PADI (or SSI) instructor can do the DSD in o/w. The ratio of 2:1 for a DSD Divemaster is only in a confined environment, not o/w, so it does not apply here. I believe the professional in question is an instructor though anyway.

 

[openmindOW]

Forgive me if I missed something, but I'd like to ask a few questions for the purpose of getting facts clear.

Are we 100% certain that the scouts were on a Discover Scuba Dive? If so, are we 100% certain that the Dive Leader was an Instructor and not a Divemaster?

Could it have been a Discover Local Diving Dive? Were the Scouts certified?

Could they have been on Open Water check-out dives?

Which agency's standards are at play here?

 

[tcascione]

Are we 100% certain that the scouts were on a Discover Scuba Dive? If so, are we 100% certain that the Dive Leader was an Instructor and not a Divemaster?

Could it have been a Discover Local Diving Dive? Were the Scouts certified?

Could they have been on Open Water check-out dives?

Which agency's standards are at play here?

From what I have read (fair disclosure I am a trial lawyer and SDI Asst Inst.) it was a Discover Scuba Dive with wholly un-certified and inexperienced scouts. I ran the last in house Boy Scout scuba certification program in the country (we were grandfathered in and then regulated out of existence a few years ago) as a YMCA program. I cannot conceive of a situation where you would ascend with a nervous diver and leave two "I tried Scuba" kids on the bottom. It was a PADI program (no surprise there) and I am not a PADI fan but honestly you can't blame PADI for what transpired that day since it was way outside of their rules. Maybe they were a little quick to throw their instructor under the bus but I don't know enough facts (as a lawyer not as a divemaster) to say one way or another. Just really sad and easily avoidable.

 

[Jax]

Dude, you resurrected a thread from 2011.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you go to the forum for Scuba-related court cases, you will see this thoroughly discussed. It was ugly. The case settled last week.

Yes, it was a PADI Discover Scuba class, but it is hard to keep track of how many standards were violated.

 

[The Chairman]

The short answer: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/sc...nts-sue-boy-scouts-2011-negligence-death.html
OK, that might be the long answer.

Yes, it was a DSD led by a former PADI instructor. There was no pool session. The kid had respiratory issues. He was massively overweighted. He was abandoned. He died. There were a number of standards violations as well as the lack of common sense.

Are we 100% certain that the scouts were on a Discover Scuba Dive? If so, are we 100% certain that the Dive Leader was an Instructor and not a Divemaster?

Could it have been a Discover Local Diving Dive? Were the Scouts certified?

Could they have been on Open Water check-out dives?

Which agency's standards are at play here?

From what I have read (fair disclosure I am a trial lawyer and SDI Asst Inst.) it was a Discover Scuba Dive with wholly un-certified and inexperienced scouts. I ran the last in house Boy Scout scuba certification program in the country (we were grandfathered in and then regulated out of existence a few years ago) as a YMCA program. I cannot conceive of a situation where you would ascend with a nervous diver and leave two "I tried Scuba" kids on the bottom. It was a PADI program (no surprise there) and I am not a PADI fan but honestly you can't blame PADI for what transpired that day since it was way outside of their rules. Maybe they were a little quick to throw their instructor under the bus but I don't know enough facts (as a lawyer not as a divemaster) to say one way or another. Just really sad and easily avoidable.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Couple of short thoughts:

1. Ratio for the major agencies is 4:1 for OW and this qualified as such.
2. That being said, many instructors won't take more than one or perhaps two DSD people. (I'm not a fan of calling them "students" since it's not a class that leads to a cert other than a check mark on a bucket-list.)
3. Even within standards ratio, if 1 person gets in trouble, and instructor isn dealing with that, what happens if person #2 gets in trouble?
4. I'm probably overly-sensitive to this (more so than usual) because we just had a 15-year-old fatality out here in LA recently but . . . Why are we as an industry still so gung-ho to put underage children in life-threatening situations? I would REALLY like to see Jr. OW abolished (grandfather in all current Jr. OWs) and raise the minimum cert age to the age of majority, which is 18.

Rant over (for now).


- Ken

 

[DandyDon]

Couple of short thoughts:

1. Ratio for the major agencies is 4:1 for OW and this qualified as such.
2. That being said, many instructors won't take more than one or perhaps two DSD people. (I'm not a fan of calling them "students" since it's not a class that leads to a cert other than a check mark on a bucket-list.)
3. Even within standards ratio, if 1 person gets in trouble, and instructor isn dealing with that, what happens if person #2 gets in trouble?
4. I'm probably overly-sensitive to this (more so than usual) because we just had a 15-year-old fatality out here in LA recently but . . . Why are we as an industry still so gung-ho to put underage children in life-threatening situations? I would REALLY like to see Jr. OW abolished (grandfather in all current Jr. OWs) and raise the minimum cert age to the age of majority, which is 18.

Rant over (for now).


- Ken

I agree on the juvenile divers, but so many parents want to take their kids diving with them, and the agency conference voted that it seemed safer enough. Then the other kids chime in that they should be allowed too. Perhaps the only possible compromise would be giving juveniles learning certifications that allows diving only with certified adult buddies, no cameras, no spears?

I did a Discover class in the Caribbean before certifying, having no idea how dangerous that was at the time, but fortunately we had an instructor each, and mine told me to not touch the inflator button - he'd handle that.