Use your CO analyzers

[DandyDon]

Can you cite a source for that information?

One of the divers who retrieved the body. I do not know why the team decided to minimize public discussion other than the deceased was a close personal friend of all on the team, so their call. As usual, the local authorities said nothing publicly, and the local news didn't do much - not that they are known for accuracy on what they do publish anyway. Same actions as in the Baja CO diver death last year, as expected for any destination that depends on tourist money.

 

[mikeycanuk]

This is a small part of much bigger article on CO from: CO Poisoning Risk Higher Than You Think: Undercurrent 07/2012

Regarding the role of Diver Alert Network (DAN) in this safety issue, it has been silent until recently, when it donated 10 Analox fixed compressor CO monitors to shops in Cozumel and Playa Del Carmen, after the number of CO incidents in the region continued to mount. It was odd, as there was no explanation why only this area received the monitors, and what the rationale was behind the donations. One suspects it was due to recurrent ScubaBoard reports of divers finding CO in their breathing air, plus several injuries and a CO-related fatality over the last 24 months. That fatality, occurring in October 2011, apparently happened even with CO monitors at the compressor station in Cozumel, but based on my personal observation, these monitors were originally located in a walled-off compressor room where the operators wouldn't have been able to hear the alarms while filling tanks on the plant floor away from the noisy compressors.

(Note: We contacted DAN about whether it tracks dive deaths connected to CO poisoning. Its reply: "No, we do not have specific statistics on the percentage of dive deaths caused by CO poisoning." When we asked DAN the reason for donating the CO monitors, it replied, "Cozumel is a destination visited by many DAN members. In recent years, there has been more than one instance reported where contaminated air was suspected as the cause of a diving accident. In order to minimize the likelihood of this happening again, DAN and Analox Technologies teamed up to donate CO monitors to the facilities in Cozumel who fill tanks for recreational divers.")

 

[Mike]

Boat exhaust getting in - the tanks?! :laughing: Thanks for sharing, but that's comical. The dive Op was stuck in the middle of the issue of course.

I don't find any of that comical at all, it's typical Mexican bull Sh*t. When there is a problem, accept no responsibility, deflect and deny by casting doubt on the person's knowledge or their experience level, blame it on somebody else, or make up a BS excuse as fast as possible on the spot and if the person you're talking to buys it, then great, problem solved, lets go diving! The dive operation isn't caught in the middle, it is theirissue if they are supplying a diver with tanks for his dive. As long as divers keep letting off the dive operators as helpless victims like themselves just caught in the middle, the problem won't be taken as seriously by them.

The op was very supportive and apologetic for the situation, and I don't think that they could have handled it any better than they did.

Really?

The explanation we received was that the tanks must have been contaminated by the gas leaking out and boat exhaust getting in...(cough)...the dive op told us that after speaking with the fill station.

That doesn't sound like handling anything.

Given that only a tiny fraction of divers test their tanks for CO, yet no one actually seems to get harmed by CO levels in their air, it's obviously either just an amazing coincidence that you found CO in your tanks, or they've got dead divers secretly buried around the island in order to cover up the obvious epidemic. I vote for the latter, they probably hide the bodies in the cenotes.

There have been multiple reports of raised CO levels in tanks, there is a confirmed dead cave diver because of this. There have been 2 lost divers in the last year in Cozumel who have never been found and are dead without an explanation. I don't think CO can be ruled out as a probable cause of death for them.

While 7PPM probably won't kill the average person on the average profile, a death shouldn't be the measuring stick of if there is a problem or not with CO.

 

[theduckguru]

The FDA standard for peanut butter allows 1 rat hair per 100 grams. If I were making my own peanut butter, the standard would be zero.

If CGA Class E is the scuba industry standard, a large filler is going to accept that standard and produce Class E product with their CO alarms set to 10.

Which they seem to ignore?! Did he have any explanation as to why CO was getting thru? I am not educated on how to set those up, how to maintain them, how to adjust settings, etc. If I owned a compressor, I'd have them, and I'd learn - confident that Patti and Analox would be very helpful. Their compressors should not produce any CO without auto cut-off, but just guessing - their alarms may not go off until 10 ppm? Maybe the operator was away when it happened, or maybe he knew but didn't think it'd be enough to be noticed?

IIRC, they add pure, bottled O2 to a tank first, then add O2 clean air to it next from the compressor or bank of tanks - so the air part had to be even higher.


Boat exhaust getting in - the tanks?! :laughing: Thanks for sharing, but that's comical. The dive Op was stuck in the middle of the issue of course.


I bet it happens as often or more in most dive locations. If you're going to dive, you just have to test the tanks, all of them - even tho it gets boring if you get clean tanks all week. The tainted tanks look & smell the same so you never know when you will get a reading. Do you have a CO analyzer and test tanks where you travel?

 

[Mossman]

One of the divers who retrieved the body. I do not know why the team decided to minimize public discussion other than the deceased was a close personal friend of all on the team, so their call. As usual, the local authorities said nothing publicly, and the local news didn't do much - not that they are known for accuracy on what they do publish anyway. Same actions as in the Baja CO diver death last year, as expected for any destination that depends on tourist money.

You rely on rumor and hearsay, I'll rely on statistics. The statistics say that thousands and thousands of divers dive Cozumel without mishap. A few get bent here or there. Sometimes a boat sinks. Sometimes divers are left behind. Plan for all that, sure. Bring your mirrors and signaling devices, dive shallower than 30' on all dives, bring a spare boat engine in your save-a-dive. But at least those are tangible risks.

The risk of a plane crashing on the way to Cozumel seems, at least statistically, far more likely than a diver dying from CO poisoning, of which there's only one unconfirmined rumor out of how many dives?

Seriously, DD, when you start packing your own parachute on the flight over, then I'll start analyzing my tanks for CO.

---------- Post added March 7th, 2013 at 02:08 PM ----------

There have been multiple reports of raised CO levels in tanks, there is a confirmed dead cave diver because of this. There have been 2 lost divers in the last year in Cozumel who have never been found and are dead without an explanation. I don't think CO can be ruled out as a probable cause of death for them.

While 7PPM probably won't kill the average person on the average profile, a death shouldn't be the measuring stick of if there is a problem or not with CO.

Confirmed according to DandyDon who heard a rumor, unconfirmed according to Dave Dillehay who actually lives and works on the island and is such a stand-up guy that he offered me free dives to make up for my less-than-stellar dives over 10 years ago. I know which DD I'll trust.

Why attribute CO poisoning to two lost divers who can't defend themselves? Why not blame aliens? And since it's now confirmed that alien abductions are responsible for twice as many diver deaths as CO poisoning, it's doubly important that all divers put their tinfoil hats on to thwart the alien abduction rays. At least when in Cozumel. Alien abductions have yet to be linked to diver disappearances in Roatan, but DAN is working on it.

 

[DiverG]

For this very reason Aldora has its own compressor shop and makes nitrox by the membrane method, using state of the art CO monitoring systems. We do fills for other shops as well.

Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

PM ----------
Confirmed according to DandyDon who heard a rumor, unconfirmed according to Dave Dillehay who actually lives and works on the island and is such a stand-up guy that he offered me free dives to make up for my less-than-stellar dives over 10 years ago. I know which DD I'll trust.

Mossman, did you miss Dave's response to this thread? While not a confirmation about cave diver death due to CO problems, it does confirm that he may have had a change of heart about CO in tank questions. I do recall his initial reservations about CO problems, but I seem to recall him telling also coming on and tell us why he decided to create his own fill station with state of the art CO monitoring stations. Maybe he'll chime in some more about this.

BTW Dave is a great guy, and as you said a very stand up dude.

 

[DandyDon]

Fine, Moss - information direct from a teammate who recovered the body is not up to you selective standards. Your apathy is well noted.

For those who wants to confirm that their air is safe, ask your Ops if they supply portable O2 & CO analyzers on the boats? Please do ask, as we need to expect such. Until that works, you can rent one at the link in my sig, or shop for deals. It's been a while since anyone sponsored a group discount buy, so maybe it's time. I won't, but someone might.

 

[Mossman]

Fine, Moss - information direct from a teammate who recovered the body is not up to you selective standards. Your apathy is well noted.

For those who wants to confirm that their air is safe, ask your Ops if they supply portable O2 & CO analyzers on the boats? Please do ask, as we need to expect such. Until that works, you can rent one at the link in my sig, or shop for deals. It's been a while since anyone sponsored a group discount buy, so maybe it's time. I won't, but someone might.

Honestly, I can't even get my dive op to supply a nitrox analyzer so I made my last 10 or so nitrox dives blind. But that fact would really send you into a tizzy, so I withheld it. I figure, if I'm not worried about a real problem like ox tox, why should I worry about a made-up problem like CO poisoning?

For the record, I'll eat a medium-rare burger on Cozumel in a heartbeat. Life is too short to worry about the sky falling. When the plane eventually crashes, you have no control. Trust in Jesus. Trust in Karma. I dunno. Maybe I just trust statistics. I've never won the lottery, so there ain't no way I could die from CO poisoning.

---------- Post added March 7th, 2013 at 02:58 PM ----------

Mossman, did you miss Dave's response to this thread? While not a confirmation about cave diver death due to CO problems, it does confirm that he may have had a change of heart about CO in tank questions. I do recall his initial reservations about CO problems, but I seem to recall him telling also coming on and tell us why he decided to create his own fill station with state of the art CO monitoring stations. Maybe he'll chime in some more about this.

BTW Dave is a great guy, and as you said a very stand up dude.

According to DAN, Dave, and whoever, CO never existed in tanks before 2011, when they started monitoring for it. I refuse to believe that. I'm pretty sure CO contamination has always been a risk, it's just a rare and usually preventable one. When a compressor takes in CO, it usually takes in the other stuff with it, i.e. car exhaust or cigarette smoke or burning lubricant. While CO may be odorless and colorless and oh so deadly, it doesn't come in on its own. I mean, really, do you think someone takes a cylinder of medical grade CO and opens the valve next to the compressor intake accidentally? No. If your air tastes like car exhaust or smoke, it's likely contaminated. Don't breath it. If you have no taste buds in your tongue, use an analyzer. My taste buds are just fine so I do my analysis the old-fashioned way, the way that so many millions of divers did successfully before CO was invented in 2011.

---------- Post added March 7th, 2013 at 02:59 PM ----------

Fine, Moss - information direct from a teammate who recovered the body is not up to you selective standards. Your apathy is well noted.

Did that teammate do the autopsy on the spot, underwater when he recovered the body? What are his or her medical examiner qualifications? Apathy to rumors is only sensibility, nothing more.

 

[DandyDon]

Honestly, I can't even get my dive op to supply a nitrox analyzer so I made my last 10 or so nitrox dives blind. But that fact would really send you into a tizzy, so I withheld it. I figure, if I'm not worried about a real problem like ox tox, why should I worry about a made-up problem like CO poisoning?

Point made: you do not care about safety. You dive your way and leave the safety discussion to those who won't dive untested tanks.

According to DAN, Dave, and whoever, CO never existed in tanks before 2011, when they started monitoring for it. I refuse to believe that. I'm pretty sure CO contamination has always been a risk, it's just a rare and usually preventable one. When a compressor takes in CO, it usually takes in the other stuff with it, i.e. car exhaust or cigarette smoke or burning lubricant. While CO may be odorless and colorless and oh so deadly, it doesn't come in on its own. I mean, really, do you think someone takes a cylinder of medical grade CO and opens the valve next to the compressor intake accidentally? No. If your air tastes like car exhaust or smoke, it's likely contaminated. Don't breath it. If you have no taste buds in your tongue, use an analyzer. My taste buds are just fine so I do my analysis the old-fashioned way, the way that so many millions of divers did successfully before CO was invented in 2011.

Point made: You have not actually studied the risks or even paid attention to knowledgeable discussions on SB enough to know that busy compressors all too often produce CO internally by partially burning lubricating oil.

Did that teammate do the autopsy on the spot, underwater when he recovered the body? What are his or her medical examiner qualifications? Apathy to rumors is only sensibility, nothing more.

 

[Peter_C]

While CO may be odorless and colorless and oh so deadly, it doesn't come in on its own. I mean, really, do you think someone takes a cylinder of medical grade CO and opens the valve next to the compressor intake accidentally? No. If your air tastes like car exhaust or smoke, it's likely contaminated. Don't breath it. If you have no taste buds in your tongue, use an analyzer. My taste buds are just fine so I do my analysis the old-fashioned way, the way that so many millions of divers did successfully before CO was invented in 2011.

Not that anyone would actually listen to Mossman's creed, but I can tell you 14 people, including myself, couldn't "taste" anything in our CO contaminated tanks. Everyone had a headache, and a couple came up puking within minutes of descending. The worse off folks were the ones that started with empty tanks (500psi) when they boarded the boat, and had received multiple fills, vs my dive buddy and I on doubles that were filled upon boarding. It was not an exhaust issue it was an internal combustion issue.