And I don't know who put in that last edited by d33ps1x stuff... :11:
Upcoming Technical Conference
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gatorboy
Guest
I will actually take the blame for this thread completely changing topics. I should have known better than trying to describe this dive on a message board, but there has actually been interest from other people on other boards where we have discussed it in great detail. On that note, I was trying to pass on information and justify at the same time why we dive air here. Learn from previous mistakes. Between the group, there has been over 100 dives here without incident. We were diving a completely different area down there when I got grabbed by a whirlpool and I have since learned much about where to stay away from. I thought passing on that information to others would be beneficial. It is a gorgeous wall, from 30 deep down to 85 to 145 depends where you hit it. Completely sheer, free and clear of zebra mussels obviously because of the current. The way the current has carved out the wall is absolutely stunning. This dive challenges us, just like a person doing a penetration further than their last into a cave challenges them. Why do people jump out of planes??? We dive here for the same reason. The roller coaster phrase was just a figure of speech people. That was the phrase that came to me at 4:00 in the morning so I used it.
Steve just for the record, Obeeno had paid for the charter out of his own pocket up until he received the money from the people going on the boat. That was why I actually posted on the other board that he was waiting to receive money from 9 other divers. At $70 US a person, it adds up. I dont know if you had been told he had to pay for the boat, but others had and he was still left waiting. There were other people who wanted to go but you spoke first so he was waiting on you guys to confirm by payment. I know first hand that youre good for the money and would back you up on that 100%
D33ps1x, Ive never had a as much as a bruise from this dive. I know it was just sarcasm but I thought I would reply. DeLuca is a mutual friend we have, I just found out today.
Pufferfish, you have some excellent points worth addressing. Personally, I agree. If a person gets hurt, the rock climbing for example or diving, where they have accepted potential personal risk, they should not be relying on health care to cover them. Without turning this into a political debate I will say that I am insured up the ying yang for personal injury and long term disability were it to ever occur. I am reminded of this every week when I see how much comes off my check. So if I was to ever get hurt and thats a big if, I would expect for my insurance carrier to pay. When I bought the policy, I made clear the type of diving I do, that way there could never be any discrepancies. Thats what the policy is for, thats why you buy one. Insurance is about risk, they risk having to pay you, you risk paying them and never seeing your money again.
Now lets expand on that. People who do deco dives without certification, people who use trimix without certification, people that drink and drive, use drugs and do other things they feel are justified, should also not be relying on our health care, but thats just not the case. At least I have taken the proper precautions I feel are necessary. By the way, I also work with venomous snakes. I however, do not depend on our health care plan to pay for a bite should it ever occur or to supply the anti-venom. I have other precautions for that as well. If you think a chamber ride is expensive, try looking a how much the anti-venom is for a bite from any type of cobra is. $50,000 is a drop in the bucket.
For the record I was tested for PFO when I was younger, not for diving related reasons.
Quote in another post you state you are about to embark on a trimix course in other words you are an 'experienced' diver and should understand some of the risks at hand with diving in conditions you describe above. Prior to starting that course though you might want to review arterial gas embolism
Actually, I understand these terms quite well which is why I did not get bent when I got pulled down river by the whirlpool, and I would like to add that the skills I performed during this event were because of how many drills I had to repeat time and time again during my Technical courses, just to make sure they were drilled into my head. However, doing a shut at depth while spinning with one fin and maintaining buoyancy when the current is still going down is a skill they may have to add to the course.
As for doubting what I have said about the skill level of this dive. If youre in the area, all you have to do is stand on the shore and look across the river and I will be completely vindicated. However, Scuba Steve has put his hand up and already verified what I say is true, no exaggeration. It is what it is.
Now I believe I have answered all of the points that have been brought up that deserve attention. As far as personal attacks on instructors, give me a break. This is quite petty and it seemes like some people are just looking to hack someone apart when it is not warranted. Its like high school all over. I will not have any part of this. I am a big person and make my own decisions and so are the people who do this dive. We take full responsibility for our actions.
Its funny, this morning after I made my post and I had already left, I thought of an easy solution to anyone that would say this dive could be done on trimix, which was the whole issue here at first. Heres my proposal. If your feel qualified, come do the dive with me 5 times. If after that you still feel safe about doing this dive on trimix, I would certainly be interested in that information. As for the rest of this topic, Im done with it here. If there are further relevant questions you can PM me. Im not going to do it here so that my every word can be picked apart while trying to defend something that is not understood and never will be. Exploration has always been part of human nature and I wont deprive myself of that!! I try to live my life day to day with no regrets. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and that would be the end of it.
Jody
Now lets get back to discussing the technical conference and all be friends whether we like each other or not.
Steve just for the record, Obeeno had paid for the charter out of his own pocket up until he received the money from the people going on the boat. That was why I actually posted on the other board that he was waiting to receive money from 9 other divers. At $70 US a person, it adds up. I dont know if you had been told he had to pay for the boat, but others had and he was still left waiting. There were other people who wanted to go but you spoke first so he was waiting on you guys to confirm by payment. I know first hand that youre good for the money and would back you up on that 100%
D33ps1x, Ive never had a as much as a bruise from this dive. I know it was just sarcasm but I thought I would reply. DeLuca is a mutual friend we have, I just found out today.
Pufferfish, you have some excellent points worth addressing. Personally, I agree. If a person gets hurt, the rock climbing for example or diving, where they have accepted potential personal risk, they should not be relying on health care to cover them. Without turning this into a political debate I will say that I am insured up the ying yang for personal injury and long term disability were it to ever occur. I am reminded of this every week when I see how much comes off my check. So if I was to ever get hurt and thats a big if, I would expect for my insurance carrier to pay. When I bought the policy, I made clear the type of diving I do, that way there could never be any discrepancies. Thats what the policy is for, thats why you buy one. Insurance is about risk, they risk having to pay you, you risk paying them and never seeing your money again.
Now lets expand on that. People who do deco dives without certification, people who use trimix without certification, people that drink and drive, use drugs and do other things they feel are justified, should also not be relying on our health care, but thats just not the case. At least I have taken the proper precautions I feel are necessary. By the way, I also work with venomous snakes. I however, do not depend on our health care plan to pay for a bite should it ever occur or to supply the anti-venom. I have other precautions for that as well. If you think a chamber ride is expensive, try looking a how much the anti-venom is for a bite from any type of cobra is. $50,000 is a drop in the bucket.
For the record I was tested for PFO when I was younger, not for diving related reasons.
Quote in another post you state you are about to embark on a trimix course in other words you are an 'experienced' diver and should understand some of the risks at hand with diving in conditions you describe above. Prior to starting that course though you might want to review arterial gas embolism
Actually, I understand these terms quite well which is why I did not get bent when I got pulled down river by the whirlpool, and I would like to add that the skills I performed during this event were because of how many drills I had to repeat time and time again during my Technical courses, just to make sure they were drilled into my head. However, doing a shut at depth while spinning with one fin and maintaining buoyancy when the current is still going down is a skill they may have to add to the course.
As for doubting what I have said about the skill level of this dive. If youre in the area, all you have to do is stand on the shore and look across the river and I will be completely vindicated. However, Scuba Steve has put his hand up and already verified what I say is true, no exaggeration. It is what it is.
Now I believe I have answered all of the points that have been brought up that deserve attention. As far as personal attacks on instructors, give me a break. This is quite petty and it seemes like some people are just looking to hack someone apart when it is not warranted. Its like high school all over. I will not have any part of this. I am a big person and make my own decisions and so are the people who do this dive. We take full responsibility for our actions.
Its funny, this morning after I made my post and I had already left, I thought of an easy solution to anyone that would say this dive could be done on trimix, which was the whole issue here at first. Heres my proposal. If your feel qualified, come do the dive with me 5 times. If after that you still feel safe about doing this dive on trimix, I would certainly be interested in that information. As for the rest of this topic, Im done with it here. If there are further relevant questions you can PM me. Im not going to do it here so that my every word can be picked apart while trying to defend something that is not understood and never will be. Exploration has always been part of human nature and I wont deprive myself of that!! I try to live my life day to day with no regrets. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and that would be the end of it.
Jody
Now lets get back to discussing the technical conference and all be friends whether we like each other or not.
Obeeno said only 2 divers left to pay. Which is why I'm saying, "So what gives", it's $140.00. I'm out of pocket triple that for some of our trips! It wasn't like it was on purpose! And he knows we're good to go, end of story.
Now about that bus.................
And sure I'll let you take the blame for turn of topics. Gotta run guys, we're going diving this AM!
TTYL
Now about that bus.................
And sure I'll let you take the blame for turn of topics. Gotta run guys, we're going diving this AM!
TTYL
pufferfish
Contributor
Gatorboy thanks for the reply and will try and keep this highjack short.
I have no doubt that a dive downstream of Niagara Falls is everything you say it is. I am sure that Vytec profile is roller coaster 'like' and will be the first item the chamber doc will examine should an injured diver present from the dive site. The next folks to request your 'black box' Vytec will be your insurance carrier. There is lots of fine print in those policies and people are always surprised when the carrier says sorry we won't cover that profile or dive behaviour after the injury has been incurred.
As far as other divers expressing an interest to do such a dive that should worry the docs down at the McMaster chamber. Lots of people expressed an interest to climb Everest and if you read "Into Thin Air" there is an excellent account of what happens when bad weather (or rogue currents), Mr. Murphy, and inexperience or young bold pilots meet.
I don't except the fact "over a 100 dives" have been completed there without incident as proof that one should be doing such a dive. That is like the guy who doesn't wear a seat belt while driving saying he doesn't need one as he has been doing it for ten years without injury. A seatbelt law was put in place for this sort of faulty thinking and the fact we do have a public health care system where we all bear the cost of injury. We do not need more regulation in scuba we just need safe dive behaviour especially from those that have the knowledge of what should constitute a safe dive.
Anyhow I will get off the soapbox now and let you get back to your diving and venomous snakes,....now that sounds interesting but yes good idea to have your own anti-venom!
That conference does sound real interesting even for those folks who may not be technical divers but want to hear from those dive pioneers who brought the sport to where it is today.
Still tickets available?
I have no doubt that a dive downstream of Niagara Falls is everything you say it is. I am sure that Vytec profile is roller coaster 'like' and will be the first item the chamber doc will examine should an injured diver present from the dive site. The next folks to request your 'black box' Vytec will be your insurance carrier. There is lots of fine print in those policies and people are always surprised when the carrier says sorry we won't cover that profile or dive behaviour after the injury has been incurred.
As far as other divers expressing an interest to do such a dive that should worry the docs down at the McMaster chamber. Lots of people expressed an interest to climb Everest and if you read "Into Thin Air" there is an excellent account of what happens when bad weather (or rogue currents), Mr. Murphy, and inexperience or young bold pilots meet.
I don't except the fact "over a 100 dives" have been completed there without incident as proof that one should be doing such a dive. That is like the guy who doesn't wear a seat belt while driving saying he doesn't need one as he has been doing it for ten years without injury. A seatbelt law was put in place for this sort of faulty thinking and the fact we do have a public health care system where we all bear the cost of injury. We do not need more regulation in scuba we just need safe dive behaviour especially from those that have the knowledge of what should constitute a safe dive.
Anyhow I will get off the soapbox now and let you get back to your diving and venomous snakes,....now that sounds interesting but yes good idea to have your own anti-venom!
That conference does sound real interesting even for those folks who may not be technical divers but want to hear from those dive pioneers who brought the sport to where it is today.
Still tickets available?
gatorboy
Guest
If you are interested in tidkets, I would call TDI right now, but I highly doubt any are left.
The snakes have been a real passion for. I'm one of the youngest handlers to work with what I have worked with and that's basically everything!! And have pictuures of all them too. If you go to Thedecostop message board check out my profile there, I've got a pic of me with a little egyptian cobra, it's kinda cool. I have actually trained 4 people to work with venomous snakes without incident. I don't actually have my own anti-venom but there is a place I can get it from. Depending on how serious the bite is it is either driven to the hospital that I would go to or if it is real serious, it is flown by helicopter. A young guy set it the bank and I think it's brilliant. It's like a club. You pay a yearly membership and your covered. Having my own at home would litterally cost close to $500,000 and most of it has a 3 to 7 year life span.
I think after the conference, a bunch of people are diving the wall in Rockport on Sunday in the early morning if anyone is interested.
Gatorboy
The snakes have been a real passion for. I'm one of the youngest handlers to work with what I have worked with and that's basically everything!! And have pictuures of all them too. If you go to Thedecostop message board check out my profile there, I've got a pic of me with a little egyptian cobra, it's kinda cool. I have actually trained 4 people to work with venomous snakes without incident. I don't actually have my own anti-venom but there is a place I can get it from. Depending on how serious the bite is it is either driven to the hospital that I would go to or if it is real serious, it is flown by helicopter. A young guy set it the bank and I think it's brilliant. It's like a club. You pay a yearly membership and your covered. Having my own at home would litterally cost close to $500,000 and most of it has a 3 to 7 year life span.
I think after the conference, a bunch of people are diving the wall in Rockport on Sunday in the early morning if anyone is interested.
Gatorboy
pufferfish
Contributor
Tom R:
Ha,ha I thought that might catch your eye but in all honesty in most cases yes we don't need more regulation where common sense prevails. Regulations unfortunately usually come about due to the small minority of folks who don't use common sense and create problems for the rest of us.
You know how the story goes over and over. The very small minority who show no respect for private property when looking for access to dive sites, divers doing dives they shouldn't be doing and getting hurt, fill stations not testing their breathing air period, etc. not only end up hurting the rest of us who do try and use common sense and abide by the rules, but often result in new regulations being introduced to protect us from that small minority's behaviour
What was that earlier about getting down from the soapbox.
pufferfish
Contributor
d33ps1x:What was that earlier about getting down from the soapbox.
Two steps down off this one :biggrin:
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