Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[boulderjohn]

Another option is the state specifying that "you must have one of this list of cave certifications from one of these recognized organizations to dive here or we will arrest you for trespassing. Please leave your cave card and gate receipt on you dashboard when you go diving."

Something along those lines is done in some places, but it is not foolproof. In the current case, the four could have driven there in one vehicle and left one cave card on the dash.

A couple years ago I was diving at Gran Cenote, and we did not realize we would have to show our certifications to get in. Fortunately, Lynne Flaherty had brought all her various level cards with her, so both of us who did not have cards with us had something to show. The guy checking obviously did not notice or care that 3 people had the same name, and that I, obviously a male, was named Lynne.

 

[cerich]

Something along those lines is done in some places, but it is not foolproof. In the current case, the four could have driven there in one vehicle and left one cave card on the dash.

A couple years ago I was diving at Gran Cenote, and we did not realize we would have to show our certifications to get in. Fortunately, Lynne Flaherty had brought all her various level cards with her, so both of us who did not have cards with us had something to show. The guy checking obviously did not notice or care that 3 people had the same name, and that I, obviously a male, was named Lynne.

I once got asked at a cave site to put my card on the dash by the park attendant, I put a joke card with "Stroke" on it, the attendant was happy, I went cave diving.

 

[karstdvr]

It's a matter of every agency having the same rules. If EVERY agency posted that it was not to be used for training except by students who are already FULL cave, then it would clear up a lot of confusion. In their collective infinite wisdom, some will not follow the NSS-CDS lead and do just that.

You are right.

The NACD launched an initiative many years ago (when they weren't having the problems they do now), because they saw the problems at EN, and became proactive at contacting shops, instructors etc in the region, and educate the community- it didn't have any sustained effect. The CDS has tried to do the same, since the NACD is no position to do the same role, with hoping other's will follow their lead with training standards and education,but you see things haven't changed much. The CDS has tried to be the leader in conservation with higher standards hoping that other organizations would follow,but our caves keep getting beat up; hence setting an example by the nonprofit cave organizations don't have the needed effect. What is the solution? A solution needs to be determined by the cave diving community because I put this site on the extreme endangered list,because the local community considers it an attractive nuisance, with the previous accident having generated a petition by the locals. More accidents are going to strike a chord with someone in local government who will pressure the right people, because hunters using the land don't generate the same headlines. I used to dive this site in the 90s and remember when it was closed. Some great people in the NACD and NSS-CDS got it reopened, and it truly is a great place,but it is like the Andrea Doria, you really need to slowly, and progressively advance your self to dive this place, and have the proper certification levels.

 

[karstdvr]

This thread could be specific to the incident, and it can be generic. We have heard through this incident that at least one nearby dive shop takes non-cave divers there for trimix training regularly--what should be done about that? What other thoughts do you have about individuals or dive shops knowingly taking unqualified divers into caves?

Question, has the message of cave diving of don't enter the overhead unless trained become diluted due to our inconsistencies. We are saying don't enter EN because it is overhead and a difficult site. But, we say it is okay to enter Ginnie cavern, Vortex cavern, even Blue Grotto. We are okay with cenote tours, and when a cenote guide takes people into the cave zone with the occasional accident, when don't lash out as much. How can we project ourselves to the community as the experts in cave diving and the overhead, when we our message is inconsistent. There is no such thing as a safe cavern, be it EN or Ginnie,because there is no direct ascent to the surface, and the fatalities at all the aforementioned places prove it. So to answer the question, do individuals or shops knowingly take unqualified divers into cave? Hell yes, and our message to them has become very inconsistent.

 

[The Chairman]

Question, has the message of cave diving of don't enter the overhead unless trained become diluted due to our inconsistencies.

That's just it. Sooooo many have dove the Ball Room, Blue Grotto, Devil's Den and even Buford Sink without incident, that when we start screaming about the dangers inherent in them we simply sound silly. Why would we want to sound silly? You aren't going to get any of these sites to cut their financial throats and start restricting access either. Perhaps it would be smarter and more doable to accept these exceptions and identify them as such.

A better idea would be to develop an online registry of caves and sinks. Describe the limits for each... OW to here... cavern to here... Only full cave past this point... etc. Take the guess work and the "limit creep" out of these caves. Look at the "do not go further" sign in Blue Spring (Orange City). How many divers don't respect it because it's not really dangerous until you get to the 80 ft depth. We come across as being nannies with limits like that.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

our message to them has become very inconsistent.

Whose message has been inconsistent?

 

[The Chairman]

Whose message has been inconsistent?

The combined messages from all the agencies are anything but consistent. There is no universal agreement here.

 

[karstdvr]

Whose message has been inconsistent?

Jim, highly respect you and what you have done for CDS and cave diving as a whole. I am not talking about a particular agency,but cave diving community as a whole. If our message has been don't enter the overhead unless properly trained, and offered a statement about diving EN, then we have no like type statement regarding places like Ginnie cavern, cenote tours etc. If we offer a statement will it stop, no,but it keeps us consistent with the message that we deliver.

 

[CuzzA]

It's a matter of every agency having the same rules. If EVERY agency posted that it was not to be used for training except by students who are already FULL cave, then it would clear up a lot of confusion. In their collective infinite wisdom, some will not follow the NSS-CDS lead and do just that.

That's what I said earlier. And when they all agree... how about a new sign like this? Any confusion? How much does it cost for a sign and an agency director to agree to sign a mutual agreement for sites like this?

We all want scuba to be self regulating and governing, well perhaps it's time to step up and work together and set the bottom line competition aside and do something. Because if they don't, the government will do it for you.

I don't have any interest in cave diving, but I don't like access taken away from the public... and I've got a post hole digger and will gladly help when I can. I'll sweat some bullets and dig a post hole for you guys.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Each individual agency takes a stance, or not. I have repeatedly tried to get other agencies on board with with a stance and deliver a message that may increase awareness regarding the hazards. I have thus far failed in that attempt. I will not quit trying, but am pretty frustrated at this point.