Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[CuzzA]

I would use the typical reflective Department of Transportation metal road sign material we see on the highways. Make it look official.

 

[kensuf]

Actually here is an idea as well. Include on the sign that the agency will refund the cost of you class if you report your instructor. That way folks won't be wary of losing money if they report. The agency could then re-coup their money via a fine against the instructor prior to issuing any more certs.

I doubt that would fly because instructors do not work as agents for a certification agency. But it may be possible to get buy-in from the major training agencies to have their number published a-la the old grim reaper sign.

 

[CptTightPants21]

You even see freedivers in the ballroom at Ginnie. Ginnie does have rules about the other caves at their location. They enforce their rules by... wait for it.. putting a guard by the entrance to check divers for lights (or cave bracelets). It's not an infallible system, but the Ginnie fatalities that I can recall in the past few years involved actual cave divers - so it seems effective to me. Similar deal at blue grotto. They manage who can get into the cave, let OW divers into what they decide is a cavern, and afaik have a roughly equal safety record.

If EN's owner cannot afford to or otherwise will not physically secure the site maybe they should reconsider selling it to someone who wants to do the needful.

Obviously my opinion here is not popular here. But seriously folks, even if all 184 (source: List of diver certification organizations - Wikipedia ) certification agencies miraculously agreed on this subject. Do you really think that would do the trick? I don't. People break rules, it must be human nature. I don't know anybody that doesn't break some rule or law sometime.

EN is not privately owned, its a state park.

I have never seen a guard near the water at Ginnie, but I have only been there 6-7 times. Considering the yahoos that end up at Ginnie, I'm a little surprised that there are not more uncertified cave diver deaths. I think the cave is so heavily trafficked by actual cave divers that it acts as a sort of "police force", although I still hear the occasional story about OW divers following a cave diver's light into the cave.

 

[RandomGuy1]

Okay, so another idea. When filling out the paperwork to turn in someone's cave cert, does it include where the training took place? That would be one way for an agency to learn who is training where. Would also make for some interesting statistics to look at for the agency.

 

[kelemvor]

EN is not privately owned, its a state park.

I have never seen a guard near the water at Ginnie, but I have only been there 6-7 times. Considering the yahoos that end up at Ginnie, I'm a little surprised that there are not more uncertified cave diver deaths. I think the cave is so heavily trafficked by actual cave divers that it acts as a sort of "police force", although I still hear the occasional story about OW divers following a cave diver's light into the cave.

EN is a state owned site? Even better, because the state certainly has the resources to put guards at state parks when necessary.

I have often (but perhaps not always) seen "guards" by the stairs leading down to the caves at Ginnie. They search non cave divers (identified by bracelet color) for lights. I've been searched. Usually it's one of the kids who works in the shop. A few years ago during a scubaboard event some agency guy was there doing it. Don't remember if it was NSSCDS or NACD or what.

Perhaps it depends on how busy things are on a particular day.

 

[LiteHedded]

signs aren't going to work when you can drive up to the site and dump a whole boatload of students in the water with no one watching.
the sign already says you can't dive there unless cave trained and ez scuba (among others) is teaching classes there. wasn't that guy from that terrible show on the discovery channel about wreck diving doing the same thing?

 

[The Chairman]

And who would be the person rating the system?

You're hired! Same pay as you get for your other volunteer positions. Twice the pay. Just think how rich you'll be!

 

[_Slacker_]

We already have a rating system. We have caves and not caves. I fail to see what a more sophisticated system would accomplish for those who do not have cave training.

 

[The Chairman]

They enforce their rules by

The enforcement is not that consistent. Many times it's other cavers ratting out peeps.

 

[Neilwood]

This has been discussed before many times. Unfortunately, sites can change based on conditions -- little river may be a "category 1" dive on one day (low flow, good visibility), a "category 3" dive on another day (high flow, moderate visibility), and a "category 5" dive on another dive (siphon, tannic water). And who would be the person rating the system?

Not got a clue who would rate the system but I am sure if enough pressure was put on the various agencies that are actually involved in cavern and cave cetification (bearing in mind that not all 184 certifying agencies that @kelemvor mentions are cave certifying - that is more like 16 and some of those are regional) a system could be devised and standardised.
Flow characteristics could be another part of the rating system - I was just grabbing numbers and topics that seemed suitable to an untrained mind. I am quite sure experts could come up with a better system with a reasonable amount of thought. Better, in my mind, to do so before someone in power decides to make legal restrictions (which may lead to sites closing or restrictions being added such as entry fees/ full monitoring etc). I would note that, if statutory bodies get involved, that which seems reasonable often goes flying out of the window with officials tending towards an "ACE" policy (A**e Covering Exercise) which covers them for any liability.
I would imagine that a lot of the agencies would be happier with that than the status quo which is open ended and leaves potential for lawsuits (which even if spurious cost money to defend).

With regards to the cave/not cave point that @_Slacker_ mentions the problem is there are so many grey areas atm that it is open to argument where OW becomes cavern and then becomes cave. A defined system that everyone agrees to gets away from that.