Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[kensuf]

With regards to the cave/not cave point that @_Slacker_ mentions the problem is there are so many grey areas atm that it is open to argument where OW becomes cavern and then becomes cave. A defined system that everyone agrees to gets away from that.

There is no grey area, the distinctions are pretty well defined.

OpenWater - Direct access to the surface at all times.

Cavern - Max depth 100'. Linear distance of no greater than 200' from the surface. Visible sunlight the entire time (there is no cavern at night). No restrictions (i.e. you can swim side by side the entire time).

Cave - anything that is neither openwater or cavern.

How hard is this?

 

[KevinNM]

If the local people around the site get tired of people dying the site will get closed. And apparently, according to some seemingly well connected people on CDF, they are getting tired of this. State legislators react to their voters desires. I've been told that nobody has died in Troy Springs Cave since it got dynamited.

 

[karstdvr]

Or do nothing people are more likely to die driving to the site. People die that's life. Putting up restrictions won't help. Education people by putting up more signs. That is cheap and then people will know they aren't supposed to dive unless they met the requirements.

So lets say you have an angry governmental official because of the headline of people dying in a system in his representative area. Even the last accident solicited a petition by the local residents. Lets say another accident happens that grabs headlines, and he asks the cavedivers what are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unfortunately the things you mentioned have been done, and this may be the best that can be done, but remember we don't live there, and the residents who do live there are tired of constantly hearing about this. The sport almost died with a same set of circumstances, and a few counties in Florida made cave diving illegal. All I am saying is that the status quo effort on our part may not be enough.

 

[tep]

What is a cave bracelet? (Seems to be a Ginnie thing?)

(Asks the OW guy from CA who wouldn't enter a cave for any amount of $$$$$)

 

[tbone1004]

What is a cave bracelet? (Seems to be a Ginnie thing?)

(Asks the OW guy from CA who wouldn't enter a cave for any amount of $$$$$)

ginnie uses different colored bracelets to indicate your diving level. OW, Cave, Cave DPV, Cave CCR, etc. they change day to day and allows them to quick glance at people to make sure they aren't diving outside of their cert level. very annoying, but it is the least of the evils for them

 

[cerich]

What is a cave bracelet? (Seems to be a Ginnie thing?)

(Asks the OW guy from CA who wouldn't enter a cave for any amount of $$$$$)

yeah a bracelet that says your level of cert, staff can see if a non full cave dpv has a scooter,or a cavern diver is wearing doubles etc and stop them

 

[topher10]

I will never be a cave diver, but I find the stories of cave diving tragedies both educational and humbling, especially because there is more information and lots of discussion. These people all have way more experience than I do, yet they still have some failure in planning, equipment or luck that leads to the unfortunate results. It helps me to realize just how little I know and how easily things can go sideways, and so for that I appreciate threads like these.

For what its worth, I have story about unqualified divers and caves:

I got my open water certification at Vortex Springs. The group consisted of 2 OW students, 2 AOW, 2 divers working toward their master cert, and 1 instructor. On my 3rd dive I was face to face with the grim reaper sign in the cavern, and I can say that the sign had a big impact on me and removed any curiosity related to going deeper. So clear signs can have an effect I think. I was buddied with one of the Master Divers, but this thread makes me wonder if I should have even been there in the first place.

That night the instructor took the 2 AOW and 2 Master divers deeper into the cave, but told me and the other OW student that we didn’t have advanced training so we couldn’t go, which was fine with me. I have no idea how far they went or whether it was safe or not, as I am not familiar with the site. They did comment on all the large eels, and my impression is went beyond where we stopped that morning, but I could be wrong. This thread makes me think that dive was a big mistake, especially if there is no such thing as 'cavern' at night. One of the AOW students refused to do a mask clear drill earlier that morning, which to this day makes me wonder how he passed OW and what would have happened if his masked were knocked off on that night dive. I have decided to do the rest of my training with a different shop/instructor.

 

[Storker]

or a cavern diver is wearing doubles

It seems as if y'all on the left side of the pond aren't as familiar with the concept of rec doubles as we are over here. Over here on my side of the pond, twinsets like D7x300 or D8.5x232 (both about 140 cu.ft.) are quite popular among open water rec divers. In addition, there's quite a few tech trained folks who use their D12x232 sets (about double 100s) for no-stop diving just for the practice. Singles or twinsets don't matter. Actual diving practice does.

 

[tbone1004]

It seems as if y'all on the left side of the pond aren't as familiar with the concept of rec doubles as we are over here. Over here on my side of the pond, twinsets like D7x300 or D8.5x232 (both about 140 cu.ft.) are quite popular among open water rec divers. In addition, there's quite a few tech trained folks who use their D12x232 sets (about double 100s) for no-stop diving just for the practice. Singles or twinsets don't matter. Actual diving practice does.

we don't care about rec doubles. On Ginnie's property are two basically separate areas. One for the "Ballroom" and that is OW diving, and you can dive whatever you want really. The other is cave diving only and if you are only cavern certified they don't want you in there with doubles because it is likely you'd be violating your cert limits. It's a privately owned site and they're just trying to cover their a$$.

 

[CptTightPants21]

It seems as if y'all on the left side of the pond aren't as familiar with the concept of rec doubles as we are over here. Over here on my side of the pond, twinsets like D7x300 or D8.5x232 (both about 140 cu.ft.) are quite popular among open water rec divers. In addition, there's quite a few tech trained folks who use their D12x232 sets (about double 100s) for no-stop diving just for the practice. Singles or twinsets don't matter. Actual diving practice does.

Apart from the ballroom which is a completely separate section, Ginnie doesn't really have much of a cavern zone; you could probably dive it on an al40 and not violate 1/3rds. Any Cavern diver with doubles entering the eye/ear area would definitely look suspicious.