Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[Texas Torpedo]

what come first the cert or the training - i.e. how do you get cave trained without going into cave? or is there a lesser cert that allows entry under supervisor

It starts with training under a cave diving instructor.. Then certs.. And cave training is progressive.. It varies slightly depending on agencies but it usually is: Cavern, Intro, sometimes Apprentice, and then Full Cave.. Diver's that are interested in being the best they can be will either find a mentor or other more experienced divers to help hone their skills and gain experience in systems that are appropriate for their skill level.. After Full Cave, you have what some might consider cave specialties.. Definitely not the same as PADI specialties.. Sidemount, Adv. Sidemount (get ready to take off your tanks and push and wriggle), cave DPV, stage, etc.

IMO, the most important thing when it comes to cave / technical diving is progression.. If you skip steps in the process, or become complacent, you are setting yourself up to possibly fail in a big way..

 

[KevinNM]

what come first the cert or the training - i.e. how do you get cave trained without going into cave? or is there a lesser cert that allows entry under supervisor

Eagles Nest is, AFAIK, considered by all the usual cave agencies as not appropriate for a cave training course where the students do not start as full cave or cave 2 divers (pretty much the same qualification with different names from different agencies).

 

[Scubamat]

Not a cave diver but I used to go bush walking in some restricted access parts of where I live. The way the local wildlife authority handles access to a) preserve the area and b)ensure safe usage, is they fence and padlock roads to these areas. Access is available with a permit could be by application(OMG you might have to plan a dive ahead of time that you should be carefully planing anyway) or walk in. Normally you would submit your activity plan and collect the key from a rangers station on route, the ranger would ensure you had adequate preparation, skills, plan and emergency equipment. In they case of what I was doing it involved logging route with expected times, ensure we carried enough food, water, exposure protection, radios/sat phones, first aid equipment and where of a suitable fitness level. While you could get into some of the sites without the key (bit of bush bashing or spending extra time hiking in from elsewhere) being there without a permit was a hefty fine.

While there was no real extra cost involved just the extra effort stopped most of the clowns and the unprepared. The reduced traffic kept the areas in better condition.

 

[The Chairman]

The whole "just say no to overheads" rule is now blown, with nothing to take its place.

It's like expecting a film like Reefer Madness to be effective in controlling drug use. Mind you, I expect some old timers to come in and defend the phrase, but why? It's obviously not effective. We need something better. You can't scare the modern diver into submission.

IMO, the most important thing when it comes to cave / technical diving is progression..

and trying hard to not blow yourself up!

what come first the cert or the training - i.e. how do you get cave trained without going into cave?

Eagles Nest is not just a cave: it's an advanced cave. There are plenty of caves to train in and this is not one of them.

 

[karstdvr]

Eagles Nest is not just a cave: it's an advanced cave. There are plenty of caves to train in and this is not one of them.

I understand what you are saying, and EN deserves respect as a dive requiring significant experience, proper certifications, and mentoring. I didn't use advanced, because when we grade sites and call one basic, medium and advanced, we tend to become complacent at the lesser sites because they are "easier". The designation of tourist cave versus wild cave, has lead to the connotation that the former is simple and less need for caution, hence another thread somewhere else about visual jumps etc at so called tourist caves. But, that being said we still have fatalities at these tourist caves, and steadfast respect for the overhead is needed.

A guidebook suggested, there has loosely been one, and even a web site that describes the sites,but this hasn't mitigated the problems. In reality if we did what the dry caving world does, then many problems would disappear. They don't publish locations,but you are exposed to sites when you are ready, and there is true mentoring process that occurs. This would be hugely rejected by cave divers who feel like I am certified and no one should tell me what to do. So there is a reason why some sites are guided, because that is a means of making sure places get people who are qualified and meet the requirements.

That is why I created a PADI-approved course called "Understanding Overhead Environments," which details the differences among overheads and shows why you need special training to enter some

Why not publish the manuscript online for all to see and understand?

 

[boulderjohn]

Why not publish the manuscript online for all to see and understand?

I don't have a manuscript. I have a PowerPoint I use as a teaching aid when I teach the class. I also have the outline for the class when it was approved.

 

[kensuf]

So why not narrate the PPT and release it to the commons?

 

[The Chairman]

I don't have a manuscript. I have a PowerPoint I use as a teaching aid when I teach the class. I also have the outline for the class when it was approved.

So why not narrate the PPT and release it to the commons?

Yeah... what he said.

 

[Tortuga68]

Sounds like you guys are asking why he doesn't give away his IP?

 

[kelemvor]

Sounds like you guys are asking why he doesn't give away his IP?

Or perhaps PADI's IP since it's now a PADI course. Do cert agencies generally allow posting of course materials sans charge? If so, someone aught to make a repository - but I doubt it.