Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[redacted]

Does not making such information available cost lives?

 

[CuzzA]

As I think about this more. There seems to be some kind of phenomenon happening here too. What gets me is the attention a cave fatality gets over any other scuba fatality.

I've read a bunch of nonsense in the past few months about closing EN.

I don't have the figures, but let's say that it's 100:1 open water diver fatalities to cave diver fatalities every year. How many people have died at EN in it's entire history? 10? How many people will die this year alone off the coast off Tampa Bay? 5? 10? Is the cave diver's life more important than an open water diver?

What gives? It's my understanding the residents of Hernando County started a petition after the October incident, yet how many people die off the coast of Hernando County and you hear crickets? No one petitioning to close the Gulf of Mexico.

What gives?

 

[redacted]

If you look closely, this is probably more about saving EN than saving lives.

 

[The Chairman]

What gives?

First off, the cave community is closer and more contentious than the OW community. We feel elitist and we tend to eat our own.
Second and more importantly, we really hate needless deaths due to a lack of training. This wasn't a CAVE diver, but a cavern diver in a cave. Whether it's due to laziness, finances, difference of opinion, stupidity or whatever, we hate that someone was taught to overlook one of the basic tenets of diving in general and cave diving in particular: Don't dive beyond your training or experience. Chuck and I weren't close friends and now we'll never get to be. That sucks.

 

[CuzzA]

First off, the cave community is closer and more contentious than the OW community. We feel elitist and we tend to eat our own.
Second and more importantly, we really hate needless deaths due to a lack of training. This wasn't a CAVE diver, but a cavern diver in a cave. Whether it's due to laziness, finances, difference of opinion, stupidity or whatever, we hate that someone was taught to overlook one of the basic tenets of diving in general and cave diving in particular: Don't dive beyond your training or experience. Chuck and I weren't close friends and now we'll never get to be. That sucks.

Pete, I'm talking more in generalities. Not specific to the latest incident.

But even the media goes into hysteria over a cave death compared to an open water death.

 

[Diving Dubai]

First off, the cave community is closer and more contentious than the OW community. We feel elitist and we tend to eat our own.

Without being contentious ( and from someone 7500 miles away with no cave interest) . Perhaps this is a small part of the problem. Rather than the cave community being seemingly elitist and standoffish to non cave divers, perhaps they should make themselves more accessible to the masses. If the community is more approachable then perhaps people would more willing to chat to them and the message can get delivered in a better way.

If the community is isolationist and engage in a the and us, people will not seek them out and not be given salient advice.

Rather than saying - you can't join our club until you've got this and that cert, and proved yourself etc etc, a better way might be to say. If you want to join our club, you'd be most welcome, but these are the steps you need to take?

The video "A deceptively easy way to die", while obviously put together with all the best intentions, isn't a great video. It's not compelling watching - the delivery by Mr Lamar Hires isn't great (while he may be a very knowledgeable diver sitting in front of a camera isn't his expertise) and it's 20 years old. Perhaps time for an update and something harder hitting with a profession narrator. If you lose people's attention in the 1st minute, you'll never get it back and the video has lost it's purpose.

Just an observation and not meant to be a criticism

 

[tbone1004]

bit of devil's advocate, but you know that most of the active contributors on this forum are cave divers yeah?

what I think pete meant in that sentence was that because we are a very small sector of the diving community as a whole, and we are all tied pretty close together, when something happens, we don't let it slide. People die all the time in the OW side of things, but because there are so many, and because they aren't tied together it doesn't really get talked about. At the same time, cave diving deaths make much better news stories for the media which makes it a big talking point on forums like this.

The video sort of has been updated, but wasn't made quite as public

 

[kensuf]

Sounds like you guys are asking why he doesn't give away his IP?

Ok, sell it to the general public then. The point is to make it available to people. I have no problem with someone earning income from their labor.

 

[The Chairman]

Rather than the cave community being seemingly elitist and standoffish to non cave divers, perhaps they should make themselves more accessible to the masses.

You mean... like do something like ScubaBoard? I hadn't thought of that! But I do get what you mean. In the not too distant past, information was not so freely available. You had to earn it through experience and by kissing ass. Many instructors resembled Jack Nicholson's rant: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! That's been toned down considerably, but we still have those pockets of resistance that usually begin with "back in the day..." or similar. But forums just like this one have made information freely available to anyone who can read. Not everyone uses that information wisely nor do they heed the multiple caveats we attach to that information.

The video sort of has been updated, but wasn't made quite as public

Or as well... I really like Lamar's version far, far better.

​

The point is to make it available to people.

We haven't even heard from John on this, who is tooling his way to North Florida for his annual cave diving fix. If I weren't heading to Cayman Brac tomorrow, I would be heading up to join him.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@tbone1004

Perhaps I didn't express myself in the best way.

I totally get the close community of cave divers, and you have every right to be angry and hurt every time there is a serious indecent.

But you the cave divers are in a unique position. You are the face of the "sport" not some faceless individuals in an office sending out edicts.

You all have the training and knowledge, often hard earned. Whether you like it or not, you are the ambassadors and role models for cave diving.

You are in the unique position that you interact with non cave divers. Now you can be aloof and just say "you don't have the training and shouldn't be here, or you can be more open and give better explanations and advice, not only to those aspiring to become cave divers but those diving in the same spring.

You guys have the most power to educate to balance out the reality against the BS and romantic notions people have much more than legislation or rules (that the normal diver may take as protectionism)

It doesn't matter what politics are behind the scenes what is important (I feel) is that you all have a united open and accessible public face.

If by doing this you dissuade just one person from jumping in that cave and staying alive, it's got to be worth it?