Universal certification standards

[rstofer]

The big difference is that now you are specifying the specialties. It's the specialties that matter - not the PADI MSD card. Fact is, if one has those 5 specialties, then THAT is where one is drawing their "qualifications" from - not the fact that they paid for a MSD card - which just means you paid a few extra bucks for a plastic card.

PADI MSD, in particular, is a 'recognition' card for having completed ANY 5 specialties (although there is some confusion on my part as to which specialties count). Certainly AWARE Fish ID is useless in terms of diving skills as is Equipment Specialist and many others. You actually have to swim for the NAUI MSD.

The whole point of any of my comments to this tread is that until a diver has completed a set of courses as I outlined above, in my view, they should be diving with a much more experienced diver, divemaster or instructor. It's at about that point in their education and diving experience that they should be reasonably self-reliant.

As to enforcing a worldwide OW standard - it ain't gonna happen. Even if it did, there are those that would still say (as I do) that until you reach the level in my previous post (somewhere around 20 supervised dives), they don't know nearly enough to be diving without a much more qualified diver in attendance. Six dives? Meaningless in terms of self-reliance.

I am not being hypocritical about this. When I started diving I came to the immediate conclusion that OW I (NAUI) wasn't nearly enough training and I WANTED to dive with an instructor for a while. So, I took the OW II, Advanced Open Water and Rescue in immediate sequence just to become comfortable in the water. I encourage every new diver to do the same. Take the classes just as quick as you can. Get as much training as possible. Then go diving with a bit of earned confidence.

Richard

 

[NudeDiver]

The issue is without a standard that all must follow each agency can do what it wants to say you are certified x, y or z.

But why does it matter? If some agency wants to "certify" me with a "nuclear hyper diver specialty", why should you care? What difference does it make to you? You can possibly argue, "because if you're on a boat, and I'm on a boat, I want some assurance that you can dive with a certain degree of proficiency." I will agree, this makes sense - in theory. But really, is that what a cert card really means? Just look at academic credentials - which I will assert are far more important than recreational diving credentials. What does a H.S. diploma mean? Not much. What does a college degree mean? Not much. What does a SPECIFIC degree mean? Suppose you got a degree in, oh, Biology. Does that mean I have some assurance of your proficiency? Well, given that you can get a freakin' B.A. in Biology and some other sciences at some universities - I'll argue, not really. Until all biology majors are taking the same classes, have the same assignments and using the same syllabus, and are being graded on a standardized basis - I don't think so. If we're not doing this for academic degrees, why on earth should we do it for diving certifications?

ŧor the basic OW a diver must in addition to demonstrating the basic skills must have a minimum of 6 dives of no less then 30 minuets each?...The object is not to have master divers before certification but be able to dive in a safe recreational manner.

How does specifying 6 30 minute dives completed indicate that one can "dive in a safe recreational manner" ?? Hell, maybe they ran out of air, had an uncontrolled ascent, went way beyond their planned depth, and kicked up silt on all of those dives.

 

[Thalassamania]

Potentially. I think it depends entirely on the person and his buddy. I will not presume to tell complete strangers what they are, or are not capable of doing.

We're talking on average. There are outliers at both ends of the spectrum.

Given your immense greatness, and my immense puniness, how could I possibly elevate myself to the same page you are on?

Do try and keep your inferiority complex from ruining the conversation. Even divers like you, who in five years of diving have been wet less often than many of us are in a month, can have insights of interest.

...

I would think that a PADI MSD having taken OW, AOW, 5 swimming specialties (Night Diver, Buoyancy, Underwater Navigator, Deep Diver and Search and Recovery Diver) and Rescue would be reasonably equivalent to the NAUI MSD program offered today. Perhaps there would be a difference in the amount of theory but in terms of dive skills it should be similar. Not to minimize the importance of the theory behind the practice...

Then again, maybe it isn't. I haven't actually seen all of the PADI material. I will have that opportunity over the next couple of months. I was just looking at the course titles and comparing it to the notes in my dive log from way back when. I don't see underwater mapping listed for PADI but maybe it is included with navigation.

Looking at the GUE Recreational Diver 1 requirements, there are 10 pool dives and 10 open water dives plus 10 lectures totaling 60 hours spread over 8 to 10 days GUE Recreational Diver 1 | Global Underwater Explorers I like this program!

I wish them well with this program and if it is available in the Monterey area, I might very well send my grandson when he gets old enough.

Richard

The GUE program looks good, but it is still only 60% of what we felt was really needed for preparing a diver to really be ready to dive the Northern California coast. As far as PADI vs NAUI MSD, the NAUI program is an integrated program designed with a specific result in mind. The PADI program is totally dependent on what specialties and who tought them, 5 specialties could be great and equal or better ... or could teach almost nothing.

The big difference is that now you are specifying the specialties. It's the specialties that matter - not the PADI MSD card. Fact is, if one has those 5 specialties, then THAT is where one is drawing their "qualifications" from - not the fact that they paid for a MSD card - which just means you paid a few extra bucks for a plastic card.

Exactly.

Thank you guy's for illustrating my point so eloquently. If we had a standard that all agencies had to follow, we would not be having this conversation. The issue is without a standard that all must follow each agency can do what it wants to say you are certified x, y or z. I believe we should have a set of universal standards that each agency must follow, they may exceed these. The concept is the same as a pilot, he or she may be licensed in Brazil, or where ever but the minimum number of flight hours and skills must be demonstrated prior to the issuance of a license. This applies to all who pilot any aircraft within their rating. We can argue over what the minimum is, but we must establish a set of criterion to insure a certification meets a given safe level. I would say that we must also specify a given number of dives and length.
©Ïor the basic OW a diver must in addition to demonstrating the basic skills must have a minimum of 6 dives of no less then 30 minuets each? This would be an example of a minimum standard. This is not on the low end nor the high end but a reasonable middle ground. The object is not to have master divers before certification but be able to dive in a safe recreational manner. Each step up must have another set of standards to include number and duration of dives. This will at least provide some minimum level of skill.

Once upon a time there was general agreement as to what was required at each level. Then, as a marketing ploy, PADI reduced most of their program requirement by one level (e.g., the PADI AOW became about the same thing as the NAUI Sport Diver/OWII course). Ever since there has been this competition to see who could offer up the least material in a course with the fanciest sounding name).

It's worse than that. Right now, the agencies are in a race to the bottom.

Yup.

It tales a lot of convincing to sell someone an 8 week class when someone down the street will sell a class that starts on Friday night and ends on Sunday.

Meaningful, non-trivial enforced standards would go a long way towards fixing the situation.

Terry

 

[NudeDiver]

Do try and keep your inferiority complex from ruining the conversation. Even divers like you, who in five years of diving have been wet less often than many of us are in a month...

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy...

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy...

If you say so. But you'll never get beyond that if you don't stop whining about it and start addressing the issues, (you're in trouble when your post count is an order or magnitude higher than the number of dives you've made).

But why does it matter? If some agency wants to "certify" me with a "nuclear hyper diver specialty", why should you care? What difference does it make to you? You can possibly argue, "because if you're on a boat, and I'm on a boat, I want some assurance that you can dive with a certain degree of proficiency." I will agree, this makes sense - in theory. But really, is that what a cert card really means? Just look at academic credentials - which I will assert are far more important than recreational diving credentials. What does a H.S. diploma mean? Not much. What does a college degree mean? Not much. What does a SPECIFIC degree mean? Suppose you got a degree in, oh, Biology. Does that mean I have some assurance of your proficiency? Well, given that you can get a freakin' B.A. in Biology and some other sciences at some universities - I'll argue, not really. Until all biology majors are taking the same classes, have the same assignments and using the same syllabus, and are being graded on a standardized basis - I don't think so. If we're not doing this for academic degrees, why on earth should we do it for diving certifications?

You don't understand how the system works. Different universities have different strengths and weaknesses and are ranked differently in several ways (I've always liked the total number of refereed publications per year and the Presidents' Pool myself). If you have an honors degree in biology from a highly selective institution, and 780s on your GREs, the odds are pretty good that somehow you've a better grasp of the material than someone who just squeeked through an open enrollment institution and scorred in the low 500s on the GRE.

The same is true of diving. I've never had someone walk in off the street with a standard recreational credential and pass either the written exam or the checkout dive, but most divers who came from other institutions where the training they received may have been very different, had no trouble with the written exam and rarely had skill problems that were anything more than adjusting to the different local conditions.

How does specifying 6 30 minute dives completed indicate that one can "dive in a safe recreational manner" ?? Hell, maybe they ran out of air, had an uncontrolled ascent, went way beyond their planned depth, and kicked up silt on all of those dives.

I have no idea, but specifying twelve or more dives of a half hour or more in length, conducted in a buddy pair with an accompanying competent instructor, is more likely to yield the desired result.

 

[NudeDiver]

you're in trouble when your post count is an order or magnitude higher than the number of dives you've made

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy....

You don't understand how the system works.

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy....

I've never had someone walk in off the street with a standard recreational credential and pass either the written exam or the checkout dive...

They're not worthy, they're not worthy...

I have no idea, but specifying twelve or more dives of a half hour or more in length, conducted in a buddy pair with an accompanying competent instructor, is more likely to yield the desired result.

Yeah, sure, if the desired result is to reduce the number of people engage in this hobby.

 

[Thalassamania]

Everybody's "worthy," that's the way the world is today.

Few, however, are competent.

 

[rstofer]

Yeah, sure, if the desired result is to reduce the number of people engage in this hobby.

I don't think anyone has that goal in mind. But, given you are riding on a boat and have a choice of a current Rescue diver or an OW diver for your insta-buddy, how would you decide?

Were it me, I might expect that the Rescue diver would be a better buddy. I could be terribly wrong but, at least on paper, that would be the right choice. I would stay within a couple of feet of the Rescue diver for the entire dive (unless he did something bizarre).

But why would the Rescue diver want to dive with an OW diver? The relationship is asymmetric. The Rescue diver now has to worry about his OW insta-buddy instead of looking at the fish. One goal of advanced training is parity. A symmetry in the relationship.

The way I see it, the more Rescue divers in the water, the better. At an absolute minimum, I recommend OW, AOW and Rescue. The other specialties are important but Rescue is more important. It is even more important as I get older...

Richard

 

[Web Monkey]

But why would the Rescue diver want to dive with an OW diver?

Because everybody was new once, and it's selfish to ignore the new divers just because they're new.

By that logic, the Instructors and DMs would be avoiding the "Rescue Divers" because they require more "watching".

The relationship is asymmetric. The Rescue diver now has to worry about his OW insta-buddy instead of looking at the fish.

Although fish are pretty, everybody needs to keep at least some of their attention on their buddy all the time. If you're just watching the fish, you're a liability, not a buddy.

The payoff for diving with a new diver is watching them see things for the first time and helping with things like buoyancy and trim. They're well worth the extra "attention" they require.

Terry

 

[leapfrog]

I
But why would the Rescue diver want to dive with an OW diver? The relationship is asymmetric.

Because, even if he doesn't know it yet, he has the makings of a true professional. Most relationships are asymetric. If both sides know this and accept it, both get what they want out of it.