Universal certification standards

[NudeDiver]

OK, if you do not agree, then let's see your list.

List of what?

A NAUI MSD means quite a bit, a PADI MSD means you've a card collection.

I didn't say they don't mean anything - I said they're not required prior to being deemed having any skills.

 

[Thalassamania]

List of what?

What suite of courses would you recommend before a diver can reasonably be expected to be able to dive with a similarly trained diver, on his or her own?

I didn't say they don't mean anything - I said they're not required prior to being deemed having any skills.

No certification is required, your error was in mixing two very different courses in the same sentence.

 

[NudeDiver]

What suite of courses would you recommend before a diver can reasonably be expected to be able to dive with a similarly trained diver, on his or her own?

I don't have a list. I think if you have an OW cert, and you feel comfortable going out diving, you should go out diving.

No certification is required, your error was in mixing two very different courses in the same sentence.

Um....what error? I was just disagreeing with the statement from post #27 involving those two certs.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think if you have an OW cert, you should go diving.

You think that someone who has completed a 20 hour or less OW course is ready to dive on their own, with a buddy of similar skill. Is that correct?

Um....I was just responding to the statement from a previous post involving those two certs.

The previous post where MSD came up was:

Exactly! Until a diver reaches the equivalent of MSD in either the PADI or NAUI scheme, they really don't have much in the way of skills. And then they can start to rack up some dives because real competence comes with experience.
...

Then I noted that:

I fear you miss the point. First of all a NAUI MSD is not at all the same thing as a PADI MSD.

And you added, correctly:

And I don't agree with this at all either. Getting an MSD cert, esp. one from PADI, is not a prerequisite to having "much in the way of skills" at all.

I would note that a NAUI MSD is, in point of fact, evidence of the possession of significant skills, though not a prerequisite to having them.

And I (in respose to rstofer):

A NAUI MSD means quite a bit, a PADI MSD means you've a card collection.

And you added:

I didn't say they don't mean anything - I said they're not required prior to being deemed having any skills.

And I noted:

No certification is required, your error was in mixing two very different courses in the same sentence.

Um....what error? I was just disagreeing with the statement from post #27 involving those two certs.

And now you're going round in circles, assuming that I was addressing you, when I had been responding to rstofer.

Are we all on the same page now?

 

[NudeDiver]

You think that someone who has completed a 20 hour or less OW course is ready to dive on their own, with a buddy of similar skill. Is that correct?

Potentially. I think it depends entirely on the person and his buddy. I will not presume to tell complete strangers what they are, or are not capable of doing.

Are we all on the same page now?

Given your immense greatness, and my immense puniness, how could I possibly elevate myself to the same page you are on?

 

[rstofer]

I fear you miss the point. First of all a NAUI MSD is not at all the same thing as a PADI MSD.

Probably...

I would think that a PADI MSD having taken OW, AOW, 5 swimming specialties (Night Diver, Buoyancy, Underwater Navigator, Deep Diver and Search and Recovery Diver) and Rescue would be reasonably equivalent to the NAUI MSD program offered today. Perhaps there would be a difference in the amount of theory but in terms of dive skills it should be similar. Not to minimize the importance of the theory behind the practice...

Then again, maybe it isn't. I haven't actually seen all of the PADI material. I will have that opportunity over the next couple of months. I was just looking at the course titles and comparing it to the notes in my dive log from way back when. I don't see underwater mapping listed for PADI but maybe it is included with navigation.

Looking at the GUE Recreational Diver 1 requirements, there are 10 pool dives and 10 open water dives plus 10 lectures totaling 60 hours spread over 8 to 10 days GUE Recreational Diver 1 | Global Underwater Explorers I like this program!

I wish them well with this program and if it is available in the Monterey area, I might very well send my grandson when he gets old enough.

Richard

 

[NudeDiver]

Probably...

I would think that a PADI MSD having taken OW, AOW, 5 swimming specialties (Night Diver, Buoyancy, Underwater Navigator, Deep Diver and Search and Recovery Diver) and Rescue would be reasonably equivalent to the NAUI MSD program offered today.

The big difference is that now you are specifying the specialties. It's the specialties that matter - not the PADI MSD card. Fact is, if one has those 5 specialties, then THAT is where one is drawing their "qualifications" from - not the fact that they paid for a MSD card - which just means you paid a few extra bucks for a plastic card.

 

[Rhenry]

Thank you guy's for illustrating my point so eloquently. If we had a standard that all agencies had to follow, we would not be having this conversation. The issue is without a standard that all must follow each agency can do what it wants to say you are certified x, y or z. I believe we should have a set of universal standards that each agency must follow, they may exceed these. The concept is the same as a pilot, he or she may be licensed in Brazil, or where ever but the minimum number of flight hours and skills must be demonstrated prior to the issuance of a license. This applies to all who pilot any aircraft within their rating. We can argue over what the minimum is, but we must establish a set of criterion to insure a certification meets a given safe level. I would say that we must also specify a given number of dives and length.
“For the basic OW a diver must in addition to demonstrating the basic skills must have a minimum of 6 dives of no less then 30 minuets each”. This would be an example of a minimum standard. This is not on the low end nor the high end but a reasonable middle ground. The object is not to have master divers before certification but be able to dive in a safe recreational manner. Each step up must have another set of standards to include number and duration of dives. This will at least provide some minimum level of skill.

 

[Web Monkey]

You think that someone who has completed a 20 hour or less OW course is ready to dive on their own, with a buddy of similar skill. Is that correct?

I think that after a good 20 hour course, they're qualified to dive in good conditions with a similarly qualified buddy, up to the recommended OW limit of 60'.

However it's a trick question because what almost always happens is not a dive in good conditions with a similarly trained buddy, it's generally Someplace Warm where a well meaning DM immediately takes them out on a mob dive with a bunch of other divers with even less training (the 2 day course) and takes them down to 80' or 90' with swim-throughs and no real buddy.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

Thank you guy's for illustrating my point so eloquently. If we had a standard that all agencies had to follow, we would not be having this conversation.

It's worse than that. Right now, the agencies are in a race to the bottom.

It tales a lot of convincing to sell someone an 8 week class when someone down the street will sell a class that starts on Friday night and ends on Sunday.

Meaningful, non-trivial enforced standards would go a long way towards fixing the situation.

Terry