Universal certification standards

[Rhenry]

Thank you all for the replies. I see now how this all works, there are a set of standards. The down side is no one wants to go to a set of standards because it would eat up the cash!! I do see how it is not the agency but the instructor, and what he/ she wants to do. In short it is a sort of liaise faire system. I do love diving and will go on to the next level as soon as the ice melts. I may go on to more, but being a bit more conservative in nature; I will take one step at a time, practice, get better and then move on.
I do understand much more that before, it would be interesting if it ever came to a real set of standards that mean something.

 

[Walter]

I see now how this all works,

Apparently not.

there are a set of standards.

No, there are many different sets of standards, one for each agency.

The down side is no one wants to go to a set of standards because it would eat up the cash!!

Not at all. When folks are caught violating standards, their agency takes action to correct the problem. Yes, sometimes folks break standards and sometimes they get away with it, but it's far from the norm.

I do see how it is not the agency but the instructor, and what he/ she wants to do.

Absolutely not! Every instructor is required to follow the standards of his agency.

In short it is a sort of liaise faire system.

Nope.

 

[Rhenry]

Standards? I guess i am at a loss,the definition impl
"A basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated"


No, there are many different sets of standards, one for each agency.


Standards? I guess I am at a loss, the definition implies an equal evaluation point:
"A basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated"
ŵhe ideal in terms of which something can be judged;
Ŧstablished or well-known or widely recognized as a model of authority or excellence
So how can there be different ÅÔtandards? if there are then they are not Å´tandards

Since we have many different agencies with different interpretations we do not have a standard. We do have a set of minimum criteria that all use. So in essence we do have a market based system. The agency that provides the least desirable training will go away from students going to another who provides a better service.

I see you point, each agency is its own market, some advertise more then others, some have more ÅÈoodies in the training package then others, etc. This is how they differentiate themselves from one another.

While I totally agree that there not ÅÂn average person alive, and a lot of how we as individuals get rid of excess nitrogen is unique to each individual. There are many differences, but we could have a minimum starting point that all must follow, some might need les time, but everyone would be within the safely zone. * Yes there is that 1% that just do not fit into any model.

I looked at the organization that is doing exactly that, making a minimum set of standards that all must follow. It is a start, at some point in time we will have a set of minimum training and instructional rules that everyone must follow. It is a matter of time before that happens as driven by the market place.

 

[leapfrog]

Ron,

I'm getting a little bit confused here, so maybe you could help me out? By reading your OP, it seems you did a PADI OWD course but when I had a quick look at your profile, it says you were certified by NAUI?

You seem to have focused a lot on tables and nitrogen off gassing as the basis for discerning possible differences between agencies. As Walter has pointed out in detail there certainly are some important differences but generally speaking, if you are diving conservatively within NDLs having reasonable surface intervals of say an hour before another dive, it's not likely to be a big issue at this stage of your dive history because you probably run out of air before reaching the NDL. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful, especially with regard to your ascent rate at the end of a dive. (30fpm max). Have you invested in a PDC yet?

 

[rstofer]

Since we have many different agencies with different interpretations we do not have a standard. We do have a set of minimum criteria that all use. So in essence we do have a market based system. The agency that provides the least desirable training will go away from students going to another who provides a better service.

I don't see how students can possibly be in a position to select among agencies. First, I can assume they know absolutely nothing about diving. Even if they had a comparison chart in front of them, how can they understand the subtleties? Second, within a geographic area there may be a limited number of LDS's (say 1) and that LDS teaches, say, PADI. The LDS isn't going to discuss NAUI as a superior product! So, within that geographic area, there are no choices without seeking out an independent instructor. But how do you find one? Travel to the local diving hole and ask around? That seems unlikely for a prospective student. Ask your buddy? Well, that will certainly be an objective discussion.

An independent instructor with one of the certifying agencies COULD be an excellent choice. But, when people want to learn to dive, they want to learn right now, as fast and easy as possible. Whatever the LDS offers will be just fine as long as they can make their dive trip on time. What do they know about diving?

Unless a student is selecting outside the big 3 agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSI), the curriculum is likely to be identical. How many ways are there to remove/replace a mask underwater? Given that some agencies have only 4 open water dives, how much can they really teach? At best there is about 2 hours of bottom time; total. The only way it is more is if there are a lot of students with a bunch of time spent hanging around watching the other students stumble through the exercises.

Two hours of bottom time and off to dive the world! Scary... And yet, for the most part, it works out ok. Some divers take additional classes and become better divers, some divers never get any better and many divers quit after they scare themselves silly.

As to the tables: remember that the Navy tables used to have a 1% incidence of DCS among healthy, young, divers. Maybe they still do. After all, Navy divers usually have access to a recompression chamber. I wouldn't expect the tables to cover a 62 year old diver with coronary artery disease. In fact, I don't think any of the tables would necessarily be conservative for that diver.

I would venture to guess that most new divers blow off the tables altogether and just buy a computer. They take one look at the process and throw up their hands. Compared to all the other money spent buying equipment, what's a little more?

Richard

 

[Rhenry]

First Yes I did start out with PADI, but due to circumstances beyond my control, I got a NAUI certification. I will not go into the details (long story) but I did end up on the NAUI program.

Yes I invested in a personal dive computer, mostly because the price was tight and it was easy to cut and paste my dive into my dive book. In short I was the lazy way to do it, but more importantly I was concerned so this gave me some security.

While I agree most new folks want it burger king style and “I want it all and I want it now” that means we as divers need in essence look out for those who don’t know. The dive portion of the material in pool and the OW do not vary much between agencies, the training material does vary greatly. What you get form the bare minimum a test and a dive wheel/table to a complete book with DVD’s and a CD along with divers log book and more. The information on the DVD’s is quite different, and the information is from a simple don’t do this or that to a full explanation right down to the chemistry involved.

I would like to see a minimum of 4 hours dive time before handing out a card. The dives I had for my qualification were very informed. We did the entire routine mask on mask off tec. But we did not have much bottom time to go with it. I had a group of 8 in my OW checkout dive; it was all the instructor could do to keep us all on track. We did the navigation drill, to short to say I could do it, but we were introduced. I was told that would be covered in depth in the AOW course. I should go on record here and say I want to take that course, but have to wait until spring to do so. In addition I have to go to the other dive shop to take it as my store is no longer in business.

 

[leapfrog]

First Yes I did start out with PADI, but due to circumstances beyond my control, I got a NAUI certification. I will not go into the details (long story) but I did end up on the NAUI program.

Neither agency is going to be happy with that!

 

[Rhenry]

Well NAUI was, PADI was not. I saw the NAUI course material and bought the book. The pool and Ow( mask octo, etc.) was the same for both so it was just a matter of reading the book and taking the NAUI test.

 

[leapfrog]

Well agency standards state clearly that if a course is advertised as a PADI course and a diver starts that course then they must be certified by the same agency. This doesn't affect you but it does afect the instructors involved. You mentioned that the dive shop has closed.......do you think this has anything to do with it?

 

[NudeDiver]

We don't even have national (let alone world) driving laws and driving licenses - why on earth would we have national (let alone world) diving laws and diving licenses?

Besides - what ever happened to diversity? It's all about diversity and acceptance of differences, right?

On a related note - I recently got a price & time quote for the new GUE OW diver class. It provides the equiv of OW, AOW, Rescue & Nitrox - for about $1500 and 22 weeks, and requires 11 ow dives. Compare that with $500 & 5 weeks for PADI courses (all my local info, YMMV), with 4 dives. How many people do you know, who know nothing about diving, are going to say to themselves, "Hmm...$1500 vs $500....yeah, I'll go with the $1500 one, esp. since it takes 4 times as long" ???

The reality is, the vast majority of the market is going to go off price alone. Not the agency, not the instructor, not much of anything else. Knowing what I know NOW, you bet I would take the GUE OW class. But looking back at when I certified - even if that class had been available, I would have taken the $500 PADI class, simply due to the cost.