Uncertified Scoundrels Teaching the Public to Dive in Libya

[2airishuman]

You seem to be arguing that there is no point to scuba certifications that have an agency's backing. It could be like when my cousin learned to dive in the early 1960s, when the salesman at the sporting goods store where he bought his gear gave him a 5-minute talk about how to use it.

Are you arguing that trained instruction is unnecessary in modern scuba?

Context, please.

We are discussing the situation in Libya, where rule of law is weak, no western language is widely spoken, and SCUBA diving is not a major pastime. I do not believe that any certification agency has a physical presence there. While the OP has not revealed the agency involved (beyond implying that it isn't PADI), it is quite possible that the agency doesn't have a physical presence on the whole continent.

I don't know the local situation there, but I know what it's like in remote areas without much rule of law or focus on safety. Compliance or not with the rules of some non-governmental organization a continent and a language away just isn't a major focus. The instructors involved in what are presented here as shenanigans may be good instructors, bad instructors, qualified, unqualified. We don't know. All we know is that they aren't authorized as instructors by the agency through which they are issuing C-cards. We also do not know whether they are materially better than the properly certified instructors, in Libya, as a group (participants in this thread excepted), because it is possible and in fact likely that their qualifications were not checked as carefully as they would be for instructors elsewhere.

In that light, in that context, we have to judge the tree by its fruit.

I believe that the U.S. based system of trained instruction and agency supervision of instructors is a safe way to teach and in particular provides a methodology and curriculum that is effective and safe for a wide range of instructors and students. That does not mean it is the only way.

I did not say the agency would do it on its own. I said that if you know that a specific certified instructor for a specific agency is putting his or her name on certifications for which he or she was not present, it would be an easy thing to check.

I did it myself when I was just a beginning diver. I was on a series of 4 dives with a shop in Fiji. Another diver was on 3 of the dives but did not feel well and did not do the 4th. He was clearly not a skilled diver, and he ran low on air very early on each dive, at which point the DM sent him to the surface alone. When we got back to port after the second day, someone I had never seen was on the shore waiting to talk to that diver. To cut the end of the story, that was his OW instructor, who was away when the 4 checkout dives were scheduled. The student did only 3 of the dives, and he did no skills on the dives. When I got home, I sent a letter about it to PADI, giving specific information, and I got a letter back thanking me and assuring me it was a serious matter that would be attended to.

Take it to the next step. So, someone is aware of shenanigans involving another student. They call $_agency and make a report. Since they may not speak English with 100% fluency, portions of the report may be misunderstood. $_agency follows up by contacting the student and the (purported) instructor. The student answers questions but $_agency is not confident of what is going on because of the language barrier. Contacting the instructor, the agency leaves messages with office staff who do not speak English. The messages get lost. Weeks later, instructor claims that everything is absolutely on the up and up and he personally conducted the course. Meanwhile, the instructor contacts the bogus teacher and the student and does damage control relying on the fact that no one gives a fig what some bureaucrat in London thinks about how they teach diving in Libya.

Now what?

 

[Attonine]

Having worked in Libya, and up until last week been processing my papers to return, I have to say it does not surprise me in the least that this kind of thing is going on. I worked for one of the National Oil Companies, out in the desert. No HSE training or briefings for anyone, no H2S training, and you could smell the gas was there. I think the doctor had some plasters and aspirin. We held the world record for barrels produced in a day.......the meters didn’t work! I can remember people driving along the pipeline, nothing for miles around, nothing, yet two vehicles coming in opposite directions managed to have a head on collision, and this happened more than once.

In Tripoli, there is part of the old souk where firearms are laid out on plastic picnic tables. You can handle them, fire them, barter. Buy what you want, no problem. In Shar’a Jamal Abdul Naser there is a really nice atmosphere in the evenings, everyone out drinking coffee, the kids are playing with real, military grade, very powerful stun guns. Serious things, not like the cops have back home.

So, some uncertified guys teaching Diving, sure, why not?

EDIT: As an aside, when conditions on the ground are more secure, Libya is a must visit country. It’s fantastic. Good food, good people. It has archeology in abundance and over 1000 miles of totally undeveloped Mediterranean shoreline (and I mean undeveloped. For most of the coast the d sett sand dunes gently descend directly into the sea, no construction to be seen). With the right leadership, Libya will be challenging Egypt as a tourist destination.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

This is a big deal to us, unfortunately I don’t think it’s a big deal at this point to any governing body in Libya. who knows? I fon’t know I’ve never been there and never plan to go there.

Scuba is a very small and insignificant sport that is largely unregulated. I’m sure it’s even less regulated in Libya (or not at all)
Yes, it started out with instructions in the regulator box that said “don’t hold your breath”. In the US, there is actually no law that says you HAVE to have any certification to go diving. Anybody can show anybody how to dive. Any shop can and will sell gear to anyone. Air fills? Just tell them you’re a paint baller or use a tank to run an airbrush or tools out on a job. The only thing you will not be able to do is get on a dive boat.
Contractors are more regulated, as are hair dressers, food service, medical industry, and other trades, but not the sport of scuba.
The part where this really stinks is the fake C-cards, that just sucks!
It would almost be tolerable if people were just showing other people how to dive, but paying for unearned illigitimate C-Cards, this is fraud. And the public may be unknowing.

And the comments about capitalism.
Any form of social structure can go bad. This is an example of capitalism gone wrong.
Regulation holds capitalism in check, otherwise it will go wrong. There are plenty of examples in history.

 

[Midwesterndvr]

I’m surprised China didn’t beat them to this

 

[boulderjohn]

The OP is a NAUI instructor. I am pretty confident that NAUI has some employees who speak English. I beleive we are talking about major agencies in general here.

 

[Schwob]

A few questions regarding government agencies that oversee scuba. Yes, I am aware that a very valid view point on this might be "no government oversight desired". It's not what I am asking about so:

1.)
"An overseeing government agency" keeps coming up by posters from the US.
In the US, is there such a government agency that oversees and regulates scuba activities? Like for drivers licenses and driving rules and enforcement of such? I thought the industry is "self regulating" (Making, breaking and enforcing the rules ... or not) - isn't it?

2.) In which countries is there clearly such a government agency / oversight (maybe France, maybe GB, maybe?)?

3.) What is that agency, in which branch of government and what does it fo and doesn't it do?

4.) How is that agency funded?

5.) Is it just overseeing paperwork or is it doing actual checks to probe consistent quality of training, trainers and graduates and the meeting of minimum standards? How?

6.) Divers who operate under such government oversight, how is it working for you?

7.) If @BurhanMuntasser could push a button and at that instant "THIS" system was in place nationwide in Lybia, which system should that be to really help ckean up the situation?
How would that system actually it achieve that?

 

[BRT]

A few questions regarding government agencies that oversee scuba. Yes, I am aware that a very valid view point on this might be "no government oversight desired". It's not what I am asking about so:

1.)
"An overseeing government agency" keeps coming up by posters from the US.
In the US, is there such a government agency that oversees and regulates scuba activities? Like for drivers licenses and driving rules and enforcement of such? I thought the industry is "self regulating" (Making, breaking and enforcing the rules ... or not) - isn't it?

2.) In which countries is there clearly such a government agency / oversight (maybe France, maybe GB, maybe?)?

3.) What is that agency, in which branch of government and what does it fo and doesn't it do?

4.) How is that agency funded?

5.) Is it just overseeing paperwork or is it doing actual checks to probe consistent quality of training, trainers and graduates and the meeting of minimum standards? How?

6.) Divers who operate under such government oversight, how is it working for you?

7.) If @BurhanMuntasser could push a button and at that instant "THIS" system was in place nationwide in Lybia, which system should that be to really help ckean up the situation?
How would that system actually it achieve that?

You are thinking of the scuba police. They work for free.

 

[Bubblesong]

USA’s wealth, plus USA litigenous society.
Here people can sue if you don’t document training and safety, and here people have something worth during for.
Is there any terror of being sued in Libya Scuba Businesses?

 

[undrwater]

1.)
"An overseeing government agency" keeps coming up by posters from the US.
In the US, is there such a government agency that oversees and regulates scuba activities? Like for drivers licenses and driving rules and enforcement of such? I thought the industry is "self regulating" (Making, breaking and enforcing the rules ... or not) - isn't it?

In Laguna Beach, SoCal, there is some ordinance that is inconsistently applied to solo divers. Certifications are not checked, and are unimportant to those lifeguards who choose to apply the ordinance.

What this has meant practically, is that if you want to dive solo in Laguna, you find a SOB to enter with.

 

[MargaritaMike]

I believe that the U.S. based system of trained instruction and agency supervision of instructors

Did my eyes read this? The agency supervision is limited to "if you pay your dues, you are re-certified or at least registered". It has NOTHING to do with competency. Lawsuits and threats of lawsuits are the major determinants of eliminating unqualified instructors. These instructors were at one time worthy of certification. It doesn't mean they still are worthy.
In Libya, these "uncertified" instructors MAY be giving the best instruction available. Probably not, but it is possible in some cases. Yes, it stinks that there are unscrupulous instructors who sell c-cards, but with ID theft so rampant, it could happen anywhere.

Just my $.02. Pile on if you want. I'm use to it.

Cheers -