Uncertified Scoundrels Teaching the Public to Dive in Libya

[boulderjohn]

@BurhanMuntasser if your point is that people are getting injured or killed then let's talk about those specific incidents. I think it would be interesting and insightful to see what kinds of accidents are occurring when instructors with marginal training and no supervision are running classes.

If you're point is that it barks your shins because it's unfair competition, well, sorry, but I know a whole bunch of people with music degrees who complain about all the guitar teachers who don't.

The obvious first point is that this is a false analogy. Guitar students to not get certifications that tell music operators that they have the skill to do life-threatening activities.

But let's accept it for now.

You seem to be arguing that there is no point to scuba certifications that have an agency's backing. It could be like when my cousin learned to dive in the early 1960s, when the salesman at the sporting goods store where he bought his gear gave him a 5-minute talk about how to use it.

Are you arguing that trained instruction is unnecessary in modern scuba?

 

[boulderjohn]

Of course the agency could clear it up if the instructor in whose names the cards are issued lives 10,000 miles away and isn't in on the deal.

Dealing with it in a remote region, that is not a major diving destination, where the primary languages are three different dialects of Arabic, with weak institutional structures, where both instructors are in on the deal, in a culture hostile to the west, is much harder.

I did not say the agency would do it on its own. I said that if you know that a specific certified instructor for a specific agency is putting his or her name on certifications for which he or she was not present, it would be an easy thing to check.

I did it myself when I was just a beginning diver. I was on a series of 4 dives with a shop in Fiji. Another diver was on 3 of the dives but did not feel well and did not do the 4th. He was clearly not a skilled diver, and he ran low on air very early on each dive, at which point the DM sent him to the surface alone. When we got back to port after the second day, someone I had never seen was on the shore waiting to talk to that diver. To cut the end of the story, that was his OW instructor, who was away when the 4 checkout dives were scheduled. The student did only 3 of the dives, and he did no skills on the dives. When I got home, I sent a letter about it to PADI, giving specific information, and I got a letter back thanking me and assuring me it was a serious matter that would be attended to.

 

[Bob DBF]

I can imagine a new diver showing up at an American LDS trying get an air fill with a Libyan c-card.

The point is that it is not a Libyan c-card but one issued by an established agency, unspecified at this time.


Bob

 

[JamesBon92007]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from teaching scuba without being a certified instructor here in the USA? Of course they would not be able to issue a C-Card but then is there anything that would prevent them from starting their own agency? The newly certified divers might have a difficult time getting a tank filled or getting on a dive boat, but I don't think I've ever heard anything stating that it is illegal. For that matter, at least in California, it's not illegal to scuba dive without a certification, you just can't get tanks filled etc.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from teaching scuba without being a certified instructor here in the USA? Of course they would not be able to issue a C-Card but then is there anything that would prevent them from starting their own agency? The newly certified divers might have a difficult time getting a tank filled or getting on a dive boat, but I don't think I've ever heard anything stating that it is illegal. For that matter, at least in California, it's not illegal to scuba dive without a certification, you just can't get tanks filled etc.

It's been done--ask Andrew Georgitsis for UTD or Bob Sheridan for UDT.

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs, but as I understand it, one big impediment is getting insurance for your agency. I was told that when Andrew formed UTD, the insurance company had to be convinced that it was OK accept an agency that did not include the CESA in its OW training.

Agencies get sued with some regularity, so if you form an agency, you are going to want it to be insured, and an insurance company is going to want to be sure you are a good insurance risk, so it is going to look for signs that you are legitimate.

 

[Magnus Lundstedt]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from teaching scuba without being a certified instructor here in the USA? Of course they would not be able to issue a C-Card but then is there anything that would prevent them from starting their own agency? The newly certified divers might have a difficult time getting a tank filled or getting on a dive boat, but I don't think I've ever heard anything stating that it is illegal. For that matter, at least in California, it's not illegal to scuba dive without a certification, you just can't get tanks filled etc.

It would not be any problem, you can start your own agency and issue your own C-cards.

And if you do a good job teaching your agency will get a good rep around the scuba world.

I know about one guy who did just that, and according to him, the only place who question his certifications has been the competing LDS in the same town.

Swedtech Diving

 

[JamesBon92007]

It would not be any problem, you can start your own agency and issue your own C-cards.

And if you do a good job teaching your agency will get a good rep around the scuba world.

I know about one guy who did just that, and according to him, the only place who question his certifications has been the competing LDS in the same town.

Swedtech Diving

When I was certified I don't think I would have needed 200 dives to become an instructor for NAUI. I'm not even sure if I needed to be a minimum age. They were pushing me to become an instructor at my LDS and I was only 16. Maybe they were just getting me prepared.

I wonder if anyone would have difficulty getting on a dive boat in Cozumel with a SwedTech C-Card. come to think of it, it's rare that anyone actually asks to see my card, they just want to know my card number and if I'm OW, AOW etc. Sometimes it's more like "Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced." In any case I've not seen "Super-Duper Diver" (Master Scuba Diver) as a choice.

 

[boulderjohn]

With well over 100 agencies around the world, you can design your own card for your own certifications and probably get away with it in most places.

The problems come when you work as an instructor for that agency, whether it's yours or someone else's. If you have an incident and get sued, you will want insurance. You cannot get normal scuba liability insurance unless you are working for a recognized agency. You could probably work something out with some insurance somewhere, but it would take some work. As I mentioned above, the agency itself will need insurance. PADI got dinged for $2 million a couple of years ago for something they really had nothing to do with.

You and and your bogus agency can get away with it as long as no operator challenges it and as long as nothing goes wrong.

 

[Magnus Lundstedt]

I wonder if anyone would have difficulty getting on a dive boat in Cozumel with a SwedTech C-Card.

I have heard that some operators demand a check out dive, but usually get them OK after half a minute in the water, if you read their standards, wich is public on their webpage, you understand why.

 

[Bubblesong]

In countries in which the law does not protect divers from incompetent instructors, the law also does not protect the instructors from vigilante mobs if somebodies family member gets killed or injured.