Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

[boulderjohn]

An instructor who is going to take the time to talk over dive conditions with a student and determine together if the site is suitable (as the instructor should), will also not be the kind of instructor who is likely to take the student to an inappropriate site.

 

[The Chairman]

You appear to be wilfully ignoring the point I and several other have made which is that a student cannot make an informed choice.

I'm not ignoring it. One of the main points of the class is to enable them to make informed decisions. You obviously don't teach that skill, but I do. Yes, their butt is on the line, and I want them to embrace that. I'm not going to spoon feed them and shortcut their learning because it's convenient. Moreover, it's not a hard skill to impart, if you make the effort. If you make the effort. Are you training divers or sheep?

The argument that the student should be trained to thumb a dive if they feel it is too dangerous only works if the student understands enough about the coming dive to feel it is too dangerous.

Precisely. If they can't make that determination, then something is wrong with their training.

"OK, here we go! The instructor has chosen this dive site, so it must be fine for me. Let's do it!"

Why not give the student options? Let them choose the venue. Use it as a learning tool. Give them the ins and outs of each site and let them choose. You only think you have one option, but you can include some very poor sites just to help them learn how to make a good decision. If you're not requiring them to make decisions, then they aren't planning very much, are they? No wonder people complain about the current level of teaching.

Never make a decision your student should be making.​

What Pete is saying is that he gives the students as much information as he can to allow them to think about what constitutes a safe dive, then asks them what their opinion is of a prospective dive. Should they decide to dive or not, it becomes a teaching point where they can discuss how and why they made the decision. If he feels they are making a dangerous decision he will call the dive himself but extend the discussion to take that into account (so they have the knowledge and confidence going forward). He, I think, is trying to make divers who can think the issue through for themselves.

Exactly, almost. If they can't "think the issue through", then I can't certify them. I'm not going to certify anyone who lacks this judgement. Again, diving is all about limits. If they can't identify those limits, then how can I expect them to honor them? It's one reason why I don't teach kids under 14. I think the Boy Scouts have that right.

Rather than involve the student in such a decision the decision is made for them.

That's how I read it and I find that anathema. It goes against my second rule of diving that a diver can call a dive at any time, for any reason, with no questions asked and no repercussions. IE, the Rule of fun. Why have a rule they can't enjoin?

 

[The Chairman]

An anecdote: When I first started teaching, I did so for a shop in Altamonte Springs, FL. The go-to place for the first two OW dives was a crappy little lake South of us called Lake Isis. Sure, it was free, but it had horrible vis and I hated it. The shop put that on the schedule, but I found that a frank discussion about other options often resulted in us going to Alexander Springs instead. Far, far nicer and less crowded. They were more than willing to pay extra to splash in a gorgeous spring over a stank lake. The drive was shorter to boot. FWIW, that's where the genesis of not having students kneel happened for me.

 

[MargaritaMike]

It's not like their life depends on this... oh wait, it does.

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Central to my teaching is the concept of "limitations". Before we even get into the pool, we go over my three rules of Scuba, the second one being the "Rule of Fun": You can call a dive at any time, for any reason, no questions asked and no repercussions. IOW, if you're not having fun, then we're doing something wrong. Let's stop and figure it out. We go over this with great care, covering limits such as time, depth and air as well as conditions, stamina, experience and training. The whole point of training is to teach them what is appropriate and what isn't. I actually endeavor to impart judgement to my students. That doesn't mean I don't hold my students' trust of me sacrosanct. I know not every instructor is as conservative as I am. They aren't as good looking either! So, I make sure that my students feel comfortable raising concerns and usually I'll throw them a dive plan that is outrageous and see how they react. If they aren't willing to call a bad dive plan, I'm not willing to give them a c-card.

@Instructors: Don't make decisions for your students that they should be making. Sure, it might be convenient for YOU, but you're doing them quite a disservice. It's as bad as not teaching them how to not silt up the place. Does it take a bit more time? Sure, but it's the ethical thing to do. Your students should be able to ask the right questions, make the salient observations and evaluate if a dive is within or beyond their limitations. If they ca't do that, then I can't certify them as a safe diver. It's just that straightforward. It's just that important. Don't produce Sheep Divers.

Pete -
I cannot fault you at all. Your technique SHOULD be followed until someone finds a way to refine it for the better, which will be quite the challenge. The problem with your technique being so good is that YOU are in an extreme minority. That is why I think a periodic review of instructors and their techniques should be something that instructors should embrace. Having students being able to thumb a dive at any point IS a key point of instruction, but is (IMO) RARELY taught. I would bet a large amount that if you interviewed OW divers immediately after their certification and asked if they were taught that they could thumb a dive, the vast majority would say "NO". I hope I'm wrong, but my fear is that I'm not. I know that I wasn't taught that. I learned it but only after enduring some uncomfortable "training" situations. Obviously, I survived due to my superior abilities, but I never felt that I could thumb the dive (at that time).

I guess my point is that while your technique is perfect, it doesn't address the need for many other instructors to be informed of and "re-trained" with, if necessary, so they, too, can impart everything necessary for a newly certified student to be completely able to survive our hobby.

Lastly, thank you for working to making all of us better divers through SB.

Cheers -

 

[The Chairman]

Having students being able to thumb a dive at any point IS a key point of instruction, but is (IMO) RARELY taught.

On this we agree. It's the difference between training divers who must follow the DM or are free to dive and explore.

I guess my point is that while your technique is perfect, it doesn't address the need for many other instructors to be informed of and "re-trained" with, if necessary, so they, too, can impart everything necessary for a newly certified student to be completely able to survive our hobby.

It's why SB exists. I don't have much hope of changing the agencies, but hopefully a student or 100 will read this and know that they have rights.

 

[Dizzi Lizzi]

Students should always be given the option to skip a dive if they don't like it. But instructors should do everything they can to avoid choosing sites and conditions that would make students want to skip the dive.

Unfortunately, choosing this site was a draw for me. I wanted to dive the rigs and to be able to do it under the watchful eye of a instructor, how can you ask for more? It made the dive SEEM less scary and safer.

Exactly. So the suggestions in this thread that it is the student's responsibility to somehow know better when they misplace their trust in an instructor ignores reality for many students who are not equipped to know better.

Worse than that, sometimes we think we know. I studied, I read the book. I'd never had an issue of going down faster or further than I wanted to. I'm floaty, and a bit under-weighted. I'd been a little deeper...in clear sunlit conditions. I've always been able to swim up without using the elevator. So one of the reasons I felt I could do this dive was that it was unimaginable that I would get a little goofy at 70ish feet and with the combo of that, the darkness and suit compression there I was on a down elevator trying to remember which was the up button. Though I was equipped with the knowledge, my inexperience was interfering--and my eagerness to dive the rigs did not help. Experience is the best teacher, and I take classes to get that experience under the watchful eye of an instructor. I have better experience now in selecting an instructor...thanks for the resumes

I think the point that some are trying to make (and they can correct me), is that if a student feels uncomfortable, they should speak up. The problem is, the student will most likely think it is just them, and go ahead.

Agree 100%.

You poor instructors! You must be aging prematurely!! I'm sorry....but thanks for the work you do. I LOVE my underwater world.

 

[yle]

Unfortunately, choosing this site was a draw for me. I wanted to dive the rigs and to be able to do it under the watchful eye of a instructor, how can you ask for more? It made the dive SEEM less scary and safer.

Kind of counterintuitive, but the best way to do the oil rigs is with just one experienced buddy (instead of with an instructor that has to watch a group of students.) The combination of the environment and the procedures (live drop with currents and deep water!) is unique, so it can be a bit distracting. But you're right in that it just requires paying attention to everything that you normally pay attention to: dive briefing from the crew, your buoyancy, depth, air, your buddy. I've introduced a handful of people, one at a time, to the rigs this way.

At least now you've been, so you have a better idea of what to expect next time.

You poor instructors! You must be aging prematurely!!

My hair started turning grey about the same time I started teaching scuba... but it's probably just coincidence.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

My hair started turning grey about the same time I started teaching scuba... but it's probably just coincidence.

My SAC rate used to go way up when I taught on the knees as my students where everywhere. It is much better now. SAC is still elevated from the responsibility, and I don't think that will change.

 

[Marie13]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but from some instructor behavior I've seen online, I feel it needs to be.

A number of instructors seem to mix instructor and personal stuff on the same FB profile. The behavior I've seen from a few instructors has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Even if they were the best instructor in the world, I wouldn't take a class from them! What I've seen: very nasty behavior towards those of directly opposite beliefs - from BOTH ends of the political spectrum, nasty comments towards certain religious groups. I've seen a diver post on diver's own FB page about a class they just took, and an instructor they're just FB friends with (never taken a class from) proceeded to make very negative comments about the class the diver just took. These are just some examples.

Unless these instructors don't care they might be driving students away with their online behavior, they really need to consider how their online behavior might be taken.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but from some instructor behavior I've seen online, I feel it needs to be.

A number of instructors seem to mix instructor and personal stuff on the same FB profile. The behavior I've seen from a few instructors has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Even if they were the best instructor in the world, I wouldn't take a class from them! What I've seen: very nasty behavior towards those of directly opposite beliefs - from BOTH ends of the political spectrum, nasty comments towards certain religious groups. I've seen a diver post on diver's own FB page about a class they just took, and an instructor they're just FB friends with (never taken a class from) proceed to make very negative comments about the class the diver just took. These are just some examples.

Unless these instructors don't care they might be driving students away from their online behavior, they really need to consider how their online behavior might be taken.

An excellent point Marie. Our social media posts are a reflection of our professionalism. I freely admit to having crossed the line a couple times. Hopefully that becomes or has become a distant memory for all and I don’t repeat those mistakes