Ultima Dry Glove System question

[Deep South Divers]

The Tegera gloves... Ah yes, I have played with these - albeit ones made by SHOWA and Ansell.

None of these unlined gloves are the same thickness or protection as the SHOWA 720s.

I wonder how the SANTI-branded heavy latex gloves compare.

Good stuff!

 

[taimen]

The gloves that SANTI makes look very rugged though... Although made of latex instead of nitrile. I am checking out the nitrile ones you're using.

Santi gloves (the same glove is available with other names too) are rugged and comparable to showas you use. Probably lack some of the official protection ratings though. My needs are much different as I only dive for fun, so I like thinner unlined gloves anyway. I also think that in really cold water unlined drygloves and good undergloves are better. Warmer, better dextrity (than having lined gloves and undergloves) and dry faster if damp.
I like the Santi system, both smart rings and smart glove system (a glove ring system for smart rings). Sturdy, but somewhat flexible. I'd guess your ultima system still works better than Santi with thick lined gloves, even if it might be possible to tweak the Santi system by installing lined gloves "inside out"

 

[Deep South Divers]

The SHOWA 720s are similar in appearance to the thick latex ones that SANTI resells, but the material is totally different. Ratings can be had or not had - but the level of abrasion, cut, tear, and puncture resistance is a world apart. Nitrile exceeds latex in every way; so it's not a matter of ratings - it's a matter of durability, flexibility, tactile feel, and protection.

The nitrile 720s are thinner and warmer than the latex SANTI gloves, but much thicker and more durable than the nitrile gloves you've been using on your system. In a way, they're halfway between the two in many regards, but exceeding durability, protection, warmth, and comfort in every way over both gloves you know.

Linings vary greatly between gloves; I agree with you in that thick, furry linings can get wet and be nearly impossible to dry - especially if they're cotton or a cotton blend. However, the lining of the 720s is very thin (thinner than a T-shirt), 100% adhered to the inside of the glove, and made of acrylic, which "wicks" sweat and is very quick to dry - just like the interior of SANTI drysuits. It is smooth and slick, and promotes donning and doffing. I have gotten the interior of one wet one time, and it dried in a matter of an hour maybe.

The best part of the lining is that with the natural warmth of nitrile, undergloves are not necessary above 7°C or so... Which means more dexterity and tactile feel. If the glove was unlined, not wearing an underglove would be a very cold, clammy, moist experience - especially if you were using a very thin nitrile glove or a latex glove.

Unfortunately, the SANTI SmartRings won't allow the use of the 720 nitrile gloves - because they're lined and also because they're too thick and stiff to stretch over the rings as necessary to mount them. The thin latex cuff of the SANTI gloves and the thin nitrile glove you use work well, it seems, for stretching and mounting. Both are going to necessitate undergloves pretty much every use at every temperature, but as you've said - in a sport diving situation it's probably not as critical to have the dexterity, tactile feel, and protection necessary for working dives.

 

[taimen]

Unfortunately, the SANTI SmartRings won't allow the use of the 720 nitrile gloves - because they're lined and also because they're too thick and stiff to stretch over the rings as necessary to mount them. The thin latex cuff of the SANTI gloves and the thin nitrile glove you use work well, it seems, for stretching and mounting.

Hmm. Santi SmartRings are the ones used for mounting silicone seals (or gloves directly without seals). There it is the outer surface of the glove that seals so I must try. Santi Glove rings is another system for detachable dryglove that uses the same base ring glued to the drysuit as Smartrings. They have the larger diameter ring and probably pain to use with thick cuffs.
I can see my local supplier listing Showa 720 and Showa 720R gloves, do you know if there is any difference? They also confusingly talk about cotton lining, so there must be some misinfromation.

 

[Deep South Divers]

You're correct in that they are misinformed. The lining is acrylic (a type of polyester), not cotton. The older blue PVC "smurf" 660 gloves are the ones with a cotton liner.

The 720 and the 720R are both the same glove. In the US, they are called "720," while the European distributor calls them the "720R." Same glove. Different marketing technique.

Yes, I have seen and used the SmartRings - and studied them a good bit as well... But have never dived them. My SANTI suits (I have owned three) did not come with them... And I changed to a hypercompressed neoprene suit (not a SANTI) before switching to dryglove rings.

I am not sure that you will be able to successfully mount the 720s on SANTI rings, for the reasons you mention... But they are very inexpensive ($6 here in the US) and if you can figure out a way - possibly by using the wrist seal ring instead of the glove ring like you mention - it'd be a huge benefit to you in every way. They would be tougher than the SANTI latex gloves, more dexterous than your chemical gloves with an underglove, and warmer than either.

I would very much like to see you pioneer the mounting method. SANTI claims that their rings work with almost every glove - let's see!

 

[Deep South Divers]

Here's a link to the gloves on the European site: SHOWA 720R | Showa Gloves

There is a data sheet that tells you a lot about the glove - including what the liner is made of (synthetic fabric, not cotton).

 

[taimen]

The 720 and the 720R are both the same glove. In the US, they are called "720," while the European distributor calls them the "720R." Same glove. Different marketing technique.

Thanks, so we are talking about the same glove.

I would very much like to see you pioneer the mounting method. SANTI claims that their rings work with almost every glove - let's see!

I'm working on it...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Have you seen these videos about putting the Showas (660?) on Santi Smart Glove Rings?


Putting Showa Gloves on Santi Smart Glove System (method 2, Becky9 Method) from becky9 on Vimeo

I'm not convinced these are reliable methods, even if someone at Santi says it works. Maybe unlined latex gloves, such as the Santi brand, are the best option? However, Santi charges a premium for them. I have been looking for a less expensive alternative (and have read this entire thread).

Any thoughts on the Showa 558 unlined latex glove? It's 1 mm thick--perhaps TOO thick for good dexterity.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Thanks, so we are talking about the same glove.

Yep.

I'm working on it...

Awesome. I can't wait to see your solution! I think when you see these gloves for the first time it'll make sense why they'd be an advantage over the latex ones that SANTI is offering... Especially considering that they're much tougher and more durable/reliable than the SANTI gloves.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Have you seen these videos about putting the Showas (660?) on Santi Smart Glove Rings?


Putting Showa Gloves on Santi Smart Glove System (method 2, Becky9 Method) from becky9 on Vimeo

I'm not convinced these are reliable methods, even if someone at Santi says it works. Maybe unlined latex gloves, such as the Santi brand, are the best option? However, Santi charges a premium for them. I have been looking for a less expensive alternative (and have read this entire thread).

Any thoughts on the Showa 558 unlined latex glove? It's 1 mm thick--perhaps TOO thick for good dexterity.

Okay... Firstly, this is very good news... If you can get a set of SHOWA 660s on the rings, then you can DEFINITELY get the 720s on them too. 720s are slightly thinner and much more stretchy than the 660s. They are about the same size and have almost identical dimensions otherwise.

What bothers me about this video is that they appear to rely on the lined interior of the glove to do the sealing... Which will wick water past the seal at the very least... And leak badly at the worst. I can't imagine that this installation is watertight... But perhaps I'm missing something. One of you guys will have to try it to see how well it seals and explain why.

Yes I have thoughts on the SHOWA 558s... I have them and about 50 other gloves that I have tried for a few years made by SHOWA, Ansell, and Superior Glove, which are the three leading manufacturers of gloves here in the US. I have a set of 558s in my shop.

The short answer is... They'll work, but there's better options out there... So I don't recommend them.

The long answer is... The various gloves that we're talking about differ here in a variety of ways - but the biggest difference between them is the material that they're made of... Which gives each glove specific characteristics. The 558s are made of latex (also known as "natural rubber"), the same as latex wrist and neck seals and the black latex gloves that SANTI offers. Some of these latex gloves are thick and some are thin; some are lined and some are not... But while latex tends to be very stretchy, it also tends to be delicate and easily damaged compared to other materials. It is very subject to UV and ozone damage and tend not to last very long, even if it never gets mechanically damaged. Drysuit users tend to be moving away from latex - in their seals, for example - because of this... In the case of seals, opting instead for softer, more stretchy, and more rugged silicone. Latex is simply not an ideally durable material for diving... Although its stretch and ability to be glued (silicone will not accept glue) once made it the top choice for diving.

Following latex, glove manufacturers began making gloves out of PVC (polyvinyl chloride). This is the same stuff that they make modern plastic water pipes out of, only thinner and softer. PVC gloves are much more durable and not subject to UV or ozone damage... But are typically thicker and less dexterous than latex gloves. For years PVC gloves like the SHOWA 660 "smurf" glove was the leading dryglove when it came to durability and reliability... And the 620 (orange) was an attempt to make the glove thinner, more flexible, and more comfortable underwater... At the expense of durability and toughness. The SHOWA 490 (furry liner), 495 (removable furry liner), KV660 (Kevlar-impregnated), and 660ESD (black) are all derivatives of the original 660 - with slightly different characteristics.

The SHOWA 720 is the latest 660 derivative - but they replaced the PVC material with nitrile. Nitrile is newer, stretchier, and more flexible than PVC, tougher and more puncture resistant than PVC, and has a natural tendency to insulate. Like PVC, it is not subject to UV or ozone degradation, and results in a glove that is warm and tough yet thin and stretchy. They also traded the organic lining inside the 660 for a synthetic one inside the 720, making it stay cleaner and dry faster than the 660 does. The 720 liner is like UnderArmour as compared to a cotton T-shirt in the 660.

...So yeah, the big difference between the gloves that we're talking about is the material that they're made of... And nitrile is the newest and most technologically advanced and most attractive of the materials for dryglove diving.

The advantages of nitrile may not be readily apparent from an online search... But I wholeheartedly recommend sticking with nitrile when considering drygloves... The SHOWA 720 (or 720R in Europe).