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I'm not a global warming zealot as I think the jury is still out on this but you have definitely made some inaccurate statements.

As trigfiunctions says, cars are definitely still very polluting. Yes, they are significantly better in that respect compared to the 60's but they still pollute the air. Check out the smog in LA, a lot of which is due to all of their traffic. Also, most third world countries don't have all the nice new cars with the fancy pollution controls installed that we have here in the US. Go to some major cities in South America like Quito, Ecuador or Lima, Peru and sit in their traffic. It will flat out gag you.

If we had an alternative to burning all the coal we presently burn, our air would be a lot cleaner and outdoor activities would be a lot more pleasant for everyone. Here in Louisville we have days where the smog/ozone are so bad that many people can't go outside because it burns their noses and throats just to breathe the air.

Lack of recent major oil spills? True no Exxon Valdez lately but there have been many spills that I would say are far from minor.
1/07 approx 44,000 gals spilled in Gulf of Mexico due to ruptured pipeline
6/07 approx 38,000 litres of fuel spilled by ship near Brisbane, Australia
8/06 a tanker with 530,000 gallons of oil sinks off the Philippine coast and is still leaking oil today
8/05 an estimated 7 million gallons of fuel & oil were spilled in New Orleans due to Katrina

The world is not awash in oil. Proven reserves are declining and new fields tend to be much smaller, harder to get get to and more expensive to pump to the surface. Also, with China and India growing rapidly our supply situation is only going to get tighter. Unless we find good alternatives to oil there is a very real possibility that there will be a WW III fought over oil in the not too distant future.

As for the tundra being useless, that is just plain ridiculous. Birds from all over Canada, the US and Mexico migrate to those areas to lay eggs and nurse their young before migrating back south. Millions of Caribou also live on the tundra. Many people travel to this area every year to experience the wilderness and see the wildlife and I hope to take my kids up there within the next two years. Hardly useless.

Come to think of it, Pennsylvania is pretty much useless too except for the coal and timber. I say we make everybody move out and let the coal and timber companies have it.

I agree that global warming is not a foregone conclusion but, please, let's try to be more accurate rather than throwing out a lot of silly blather.


So you are giving up cars and dive boats to save the planet and the Canadian birds? If they are so polluting, why do you use them? We all need to cut back, so let's start with those who think GW is a problem. those of us who don't, we get to keep our SUVs. Fair deal?

And what exactly would you power such devices with? Rubber bands...oh, I know. Hybrids (which apparently aren't all that green and not that popular anymore), or electricity (coal anyone?).

So you would rather live in the tundra, with the birds, than Pennsylvania? By the way, the first oil wells were drilled here, we still don't have a problem with that. And we have nuclear too. Despite three mile island, we don't have any two headed babies yet.

And you made my point about the Third world. If GW advocates had their way, we would all be Third World and gagging. The key to pollution control is 1) freedom and free markets and 2) wealth production. The free and wealthy nations are the cleanest.

So your solution, I suspect, would be to cripple our economies by making oil expensive and unobtainable and make us all like Lima, Peru?
 
"The only reasonable C02 neutral way to power this nation is nuclear...do you support this position? If, on the other hand, you think we can power our lifestyles using bird-chomping windmills and gazillion dollar solar panels, then you are drinking the koolaid."
There is not a single commercial jet aircraft operating in the continental United States (or on the planet) deriving energy from coal, nuclear power, windmill, solar, geothermal, steam, hydro, methane, corn derivatives, or other alternative fuels.

JP-4 jet fuel derived from carbon sources will be around for awhile yet, so long as business requires traveling from one city to another on jet aircraft owned and operated by airline companies.

We can reduce reliance on carbon-based fuels, but not eliminate it - yet...
 
So you are giving up cars and dive boats to save the planet and the Canadian birds? If they are so polluting, why do you use them? We all need to cut back, so let's start with those who think GW is a problem. those of us who don't, we get to keep our SUVs. Fair deal?

And what exactly would you power such devices with? Rubber bands...oh, I know. Hybrids (which apparently aren't all that green and not that popular anymore), or electricity (coal anyone?).

So you would rather live in the tundra, with the birds, than Pennsylvania? By the way, the first oil wells were drilled here, we still don't have a problem with that. And we have nuclear too. Despite three mile island, we don't have any two headed babies yet.

And you made my point about the Third world. If GW advocates had their way, we would all be Third World and gagging. The key to pollution control is 1) freedom and free markets and 2) wealth production. The free and wealthy nations are the cleanest.

So your solution, I suspect, would be to cripple our economies by making oil expensive and unobtainable and make us all like Lima, Peru?

Did you even read the part where I said that I don't believe global warming is proven? No, I'd just like for you to be accurate with your statements.
 
Wow, I never knew we had such highly trained climate scientists on SB!

Even the writer of the op-ed posted at the start of this thread recognizes that he is in a complete minority......:D

Now - I'm no scientist, nor do I pretend to be one on a scuba diving message board, but I can add up. Considering the numbers of climate scientists that are telling me we have a problem and we're at least partly responsible for it vs the number who are denying it I'd consider myself pretty dumb, selfish, and totally irresponsible just to ignore the issue and pretend it has nothing to do with me.

As I type this millions are flooded out in Southerm Mexico as a result of a Katrina type event, and this year the Asia/Pacific region has seen some of the worst typhoons in living memory.

But I'm no scientist.
 
Wow, I never knew we had such highly trained climate scientists on SB!

Even the writer of the op-ed posted at the start of this thread recognizes that he is in a complete minority......:D

Now - I'm no scientist, nor do I pretend to be one on a scuba diving message board, but I can add up. Considering the numbers of climate scientists that are telling me we have a problem and we're at least partly responsible for it vs the number who are denying it I'd consider myself pretty dumb, selfish, and totally irresponsible just to ignore the issue and pretend it has nothing to do with me.

As I type this millions are flooded out in Southerm Mexico as a result of a Katrina type event, and this year the Asia/Pacific region has seen some of the worst typhoons in living memory.

But I'm no scientist.

So storms never happened before the age of the automobile?

My point about the hurricane seasons of the past two years was that they were both predicted to be above average and they were both duds. So much for prognosticating.

As for looking for truth in the relative numbers of scientists who believe or disbelieve a given hypothesis, I"m reminded of the old national lampoon quip: eat s***--- a quadrillion flies CAN'T be wrong

Science isn't done by vote or majority consensus. Unfortunately, big science is funded top-down by major funding agencies like the NSF or, in medicine, the NIH, where a handful of scientists set the paradigm. If you want funding you "agree" with that paradigm or you don't work, at least until that paradigm runs its course. Thus, a "consensus" may be no more than a few well-connected zealots holding the pursestrings at the federal level.

Example: the paradigm of cancer treatment twenty years ago was "cytokines" lsuch as interleukins and interferons. "Everyone" in the field believed in them, at least at the time, because the NIH honchos who determine funding believed in them. Now they lay mostly discraded in the scrapheap of cancer pharmacology, because they didn't work.
 
So storms never happened before the age of the automobile?

My point about the hurricane seasons of the past two years was that they were both predicted to be above average and they were both duds. So much for prognosticating.

As for looking for truth in the relative numbers of scientists who believe or disbelieve a given hypothesis, I"m reminded of the old national lampoon quip: eat s***--- a quadrillion flies CAN'T be wrong

Science isn't done by vote or majority consensus. Unfortunately, big science is funded top-down by major funding agencies like the NSF or, in medicine, the NIH, where a handful of scientists set the paradigm. If you want funding you "agree" with that paradigm or you don't work, at least until that paradigm runs its course. Thus, a "consensus" may be no more than a few well-connected zealots holding the pursestrings at the federal level.

Example: the paradigm of cancer treatment twenty years ago was "cytokines" lsuch as interleukins and interferons. "Everyone" in the field believed in them, at least at the time, because the NIH honchos who determine funding believed in them. Now they lay mostly discraded in the scrapheap of cancer pharmacology, because they didn't work.


I’ve been trying to stay out of this but this last statement displays one thing that discredits your position and paradigm. I have a very close relative that is a researcher, nationally recognized and well respected in the science community. He lives on grants and funding from sources on all sides of an issue. He tells me that once he has completed a project, complied the data and published the results the people who like the result advertise their position and the people who are disappointed by the results, try to come up with a new idea or direction.

I am surprised that a Medical Doctor would not recognize that cancer research is anything but static. Many cherished ideas about how to treat cancer fall by the wayside all the time. City of Hope Cancer center, (in my back yard) treats cancer differently today than they did even last year. And with more research, they will treat it differently next year.

Are any studies worthy of validation that are paid for by Big Oil or the NSF? Someone has to fund these studies. I contend it is how we interpret and put into practice the results, not who paid. Afterall, doing what we can to improve our environment is better than doing nothing about it at all.

I applaud big oil, NSF and anyone else for funding these studies and research. How else will we learn?
 
So storms never happened before the age of the automobile?

My point about the hurricane seasons of the past two years was that they were both predicted to be above average and they were both duds. So much for prognosticating.

As for looking for truth in the relative numbers of scientists who believe or disbelieve a given hypothesis, I"m reminded of the old national lampoon quip: eat s***--- a quadrillion flies CAN'T be wrong

Science isn't done by vote or majority consensus. Unfortunately, big science is funded top-down by major funding agencies like the NSF or, in medicine, the NIH, where a handful of scientists set the paradigm. If you want funding you "agree" with that paradigm or you don't work, at least until that paradigm runs its course. Thus, a "consensus" may be no more than a few well-connected zealots holding the pursestrings at the federal level.

Example: the paradigm of cancer treatment twenty years ago was "cytokines" lsuch as interleukins and interferons. "Everyone" in the field believed in them, at least at the time, because the NIH honchos who determine funding believed in them. Now they lay mostly discraded in the scrapheap of cancer pharmacology, because they didn't work.
Sure storms happened - just not at the intensity or frequency that they do today. As for hiding behind that because US based hurricanes haven't been so bad for a couple of years the weather isn't as predicted, that's complete nonsense. Try looking at it from a global perspective. As I just said - this last season in the Asia/Pacific has yielded a couple of typhoons that have been the worst in living memory. Just because it didn't happen in the US doesn't mean it didn't happen! :eyebrow:

And you're completely correct about science funding. Companies like Mobil/Exxon have paid an awful lot to fund studies which support the "it's not happening" argument. Still - you have governments, including the US, that have funded independent studies - hundreds of them - that have led those governments to now believe that there IS a problem, and WE ARE at least partly to blame. This is the current position of the US Administration as well by the way - and I'll bet you $100 that GWBush didn't order them to produce these results in spite of the science! :rofl3:

No - the science is more than 90% sure now. It's not 100%, that's true. However - the probability is so high that almost everyone is now paying attention.

The argument now isn't anymore about whether it's happening and why - it's about what we can do, if anything, about it.

Still, if you guys want to keep on beating the horse that the White House pronounced dead months ago I suppose no one is going to stop you.

Don't expect to be taken seriously though. It's funny to read the accusations of "religion" and avoidance of "rational scrutiny". From where I'm sitting I seem to have read a LOT of that in this thread! :rofl3:
 
So storms never happened before the age of the automobile?

My point about the hurricane seasons of the past two years was that they were both predicted to be above average and they were both duds. So much for prognosticating.

As for looking for truth in the relative numbers of scientists who believe or disbelieve a given hypothesis, I"m reminded of the old national lampoon quip: eat s***--- a quadrillion flies CAN'T be wrong

Science isn't done by vote or majority consensus. Unfortunately, big science is funded top-down by major funding agencies like the NSF or, in medicine, the NIH, where a handful of scientists set the paradigm. If you want funding you "agree" with that paradigm or you don't work, at least until that paradigm runs its course. Thus, a "consensus" may be no more than a few well-connected zealots holding the pursestrings at the federal level.

Example: the paradigm of cancer treatment twenty years ago was "cytokines" lsuch as interleukins and interferons. "Everyone" in the field believed in them, at least at the time, because the NIH honchos who determine funding believed in them. Now they lay mostly discraded in the scrapheap of cancer pharmacology, because they didn't work.


I think you hit the nail on the head! The lure of funding is driving the results. Further you now have politicians talking about taxes to prevent global warming hmmmmm.(Rep Dingell democrat-Mich)
 
Proliferation of Climate Scepticism in Europe Font Size:
By Hans H.J. Labohm : BIO| 05 Nov 2007
Discuss This Story! (10) Email | Print | Bookmark | Save

euroskepticism

Climate scepticism has now gained a firm foothold in various European countries.

In Denmark Bjørn Lomborg stands out as the single most important sceptical environmental*ist, defying the political correctness which is such a characteristic feature of his home country, as well as other Nordic countries. But wait! Bjørn Lomborg is not a genuine climate sceptic. Real climate sceptics admire his courage, his scientific rigour and debating skills, but beg to disagree with him on the fundamentals of climate science. Lomborg acknowledges that there is such a thing as man-made global warming, which is quite in line with the mantra of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change). He 'only' challenges the cost benefit relationships of the policy meas*ures, which have been proposed to do something about it. Massive expenditures (often euphemistically called 'investments') in exchange for undetectable returns. Real climate sceptics do not accept the man-made global warming hypothesis. They are of the opinion that the human contribution to global warming over the last century or so is at most insignificant. But, of course, they are happy with the arguments advanced by Bjørn Lomborg to bolster their case against climate hysteria.

In Germany EIKE (Europäisches Institut für Klima und Energie, Jena: EIKE) has been established - still in its infancy, but nevertheless. Moreover, a group of German climate sceptics has written something which could be called a consensus among many climate sceptics: Climate Manifest of Heiligenroth (See: Klimamanifest). Furthermore there are many climate sceptical websites in Germany. For those who like visual thrills and possess a basic command of the German language, Konrad Fischer's website might be fun: 'Videos and films concerning the greenhouse swindle and climate terror' (Videoclips und Filme zum Treibhausschwindel und Klimaschutzterror)

But the AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming) belief is still overwhelming in Germany. In newspapers and on TV, Stefan Rahmstorf, the German climate Torquemada, -- comparable to Al Gore in the US, George Monbiot in the UK and David Suzuki in Canada -- are constantly attacking critics of the AGW hypothesis. Contrary to good scientific practice, he lavishly lards his interventions with ad hominem attacks and insinuations that his opponents lack qualifications and/or are being paid by industry. Although decades of pro AGW indoctrination has left its mark on the German psyche, even true believers are becoming fed up with him.

In Sweden, despite its high standards of political correctness, there is a very vocal group of climate sceptics, which regularly publish in 'Elbranchen'. In September 2006 they organised a seminar: 'Global Warming - Scientific Controversies in Climate Variability'. This meeting was hosted by the Royal Technical High School in Stockholm and chaired by its rector, Peter Stilbs (See: Climate Meeting Homepage). Even Swedish TV has aired a debate on the issue. For those who have some command of the Scandinavian languages, see: http://webbtv.axess.se/index.aspx?id=229: Veckans Debatt: Global uppvärming: Vad säger vetenskapen?

In Italy the Bruno Leoni Institute has espoused climate scepticism (Istituto Bruno Leoni). In Spain, the foundation Rafael del Pino has paid attention to climate scepticism in the past, but because of social and political pressure it has felt forced to keep a low profile on this issue over the last few years. (Libertad Digital - - - Debate sobre el protocolo de Kioto) In the French-speaking part of Europe, individual scientists such as as Marcel Leroux could be mentioned. Moreover, the Molinari Institute has joined the cause of climate scepticism (Institut économique Molinari). In the Czech Republic, President Vaclav Havel is single-handedly attempting to instil some common sense into public opinion. In Austria the Hayek Institute carries the torch (Hayek), while Estonia is represented by Olavi Kärner (Olavi Kärner - Selected publications).

In my own country, the Netherlands, the situation has markedly improved. In line with the tradition of consensus-seeking, it has been possible to establish something close to a real dialogue between AGW adherents and the climate sceptics. Personally, I have even been invited by the Nether*lands Royal Meteorological Institute (KNMI) to become expert reviewer of the IPCC. As such, I have submitted many fundamental criticisms on the draft texts of the Fourth Assessment Re*port of the Panel (AR4). What happened to my comments? To be honest, I have not the faintest idea. Most probably, nothing at all.

Nevertheless, in my capacity as expert reviewer of the IPCC, I have also received (a tiny) part of the Nobel price, which has been awarded to Al Gore and the IPCC (yes, thanks for your congratulations). Should I be grateful? I don't think so. Both 'An Inconvenient Truth' and the latest IPCC report labour under cherry-picking, spindoctoring and scare-mongering (Al Gore's movie more than the IPCC reports). Awarding the Nobel price for such flawed science is a disgrace. But it should be recalled that the Nobel Prize for Peace is being awarded by a group of (five) Norwegian politicians and not by the Swedish Academy of Science, which is always scrupulously investigating the merits of the candidates. The Norwegians are piggybacking on the reputation of the Nobel prizes for science and literature. The method of electing the winner of the Peace prize ensures a political outcome reflecting the current strength of Norwegian political parties. Four out of five members of the parliamentary committee that selected Gore are former cabinet members. The fifth, Mjoes, was president of the University of Tromso. So the Democrat Gore owes his prize to a constellation of Progressives, Social and Christian Democrats and Green socialists. Little wonder Francis Sejersted, past chairman of the committee, admits: 'Awarding a peace prize is, to put it bluntly, a political act.'

Russian scientists are criticising very openly the AGW hypothesis. They do it with a frankness which - in this particular field - is still rare in the 'free world'. Usually scientists shroud their statements in clouds of caveats. Even the IPCC follows this tradition to a certain extent. But Russian climatologists do not. They simply state that a new little ice age is imminent. Not so long ago it was astronomer Khabibullo Abdusamatov of the Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in St. Petersburg, who declared that the Earth will experience a 'mini Ice Age' in the middle of this century, caused by low solar activity. Now it is the climatologist Olech Sorochtin, member of the Russian Academy of Physical Science, who joins him. His message was prominently disseminated by the Russian press agency Novosti, which in the period of the Cold War was generally considered to be a mouthpiece of the Kremlin. (http://de.rian.ru/analysis/20071009/83073114.html). Therefore, it is perhaps not too far-fetched to speculate that this might be a warning signal that the Russians will drop out of Kyoto when its first phase expires in 2012.

But Britannia rules the waves. Stewart Dimmock, a Kent lorry driver and school governor, took the government to court for sending copies of Gore's film to schools. He was backed by a group of campaigners, including Viscount Monckton, a former adviser to Mrs Thatcher. They won a legal victory against 'An Inconvenient Truth'. Mr Justice Burton ruled that the movie contained at least nine scientific errors and said ministers must send new guidance to teachers before it was screened. 'That ruling was a fantastic victory,' said Monckton. 'What we want to do now is send schools material reflecting an alternative point of view so that pupils can make their own minds up.' Monckton has also won support from the maker of 'The Great Global Warming Swindle'. Martin Durkin, managing director of WAG TV, which produced the documentary, said he would be delighted for his film to go to schools. I have become a proselytiser against the so-called consensus on climate change ... people can decide for themselves,' he said.

And what about our kids? Well, they have survived the story of Santa Claus without any visible scars. Wouldn't they survive the nonsense of man-made global warming as well?

Hans Labohm is an independent economist. Together with Dick Thoenes and Simon Rozendaal, he is co-author of 'Man-Made Global Warming: Unravelling a Dogma'.
 
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