Two Divers Die in Mexican Cenote

[Rick Murchison]

Directional arrows used improperly will make things very clear for the team using them but can lead to confusion for another team in the system.

Why is that?
The only arrows that exist for my team are the ones my team puts there. While we won't exactly ignore permanent line markers that have distances etc on them, the only markers that really count are the ones we place.
I'm pretty flexible about lots of things, but I'm absolutely inflexible on this point - if I want a line arrow to mean something then it's up to me to put one of mine (or my team's) there.
Rick

 

[Bobby]

Why is that?
The only arrows that exist for my team are the ones my team puts there. While we won't exactly ignore permanent line markers that have distances etc on them, the only markers that really count are the ones we place.
I'm pretty flexible about lots of things, but I'm absolutely inflexible on this point - if I want a line arrow to mean something then it's up to me to put one of mine (or my team's) there.
Rick

Rick,
Lets look at how things are actually done on a dive, very rarely does a team put any marker in unless they are making a jump, gap, circuit, etc.. Lets look at a hypothetical situation which I referenced earlier going up the double lines at Ginnie. Team A makes the jump just before the bats and makes another jump to the B/S tunnel. At the B/S tunnel the team puts in an arrow pointing in the direction they came from even though the closer exit and the other arrows point the opposing direction. Team B has come in from either direction it does not matter. In between B/S tunnel and Double arrow they have a problem, lets say silt out from BC failure. They relocate the line and start to head back towards B/S tunnel jump direction. They find the arrow pointing back the other direction (Yes they should notice the line attached to it because we know that everyone puts a line on all jumps) and turns back the other way assuming they went the wrong way. Going back the other way they find arrows again pointing the opposite direction for closest exit. In a stressed situation this alone could be enough to cost the team the time they needed to exit with a bad situation. This has strayed a bit off the original statement that non-directionals can be used to establish teams direction they came from if used properly. It does though show how confusion can happen from putting in directional arrows against the permenant ones. There are of course other systems that this can easily happen such as Orange Grove, etc.

 

[Pez de Diablo]

Why is that?
The only arrows that exist for my team are the ones my team puts there. While we won't exactly ignore permanent line markers that have distances etc on them, the only markers that really count are the ones we place.
I'm pretty flexible about lots of things, but I'm absolutely inflexible on this point - if I want a line arrow to mean something then it's up to me to put one of mine (or my team's) there.
Rick

So true Rick, you only trust what you know as fact. Only do a traverse if it can be done on your first 3rd, unless you set up the traverse with your line marker. To trust anything else is to trust your life to someone else. Not an option when I am in a cave.

Dennis

 

[decoswife]

Hello everyone,

I am Kent's wife. I just want to start off thanking everyone whom has offered up their condolences and support. This past week has been incredibly difficult, I am short on time, as Kents' interrment is taking place this afternoon.

I have just located this board and have not yet had an opportunity to read all the posts on this thread.

I do, however, want to address the speculation and critism of Kent and Micheals training and skills. I am a PADI dive-master, but not cave trained, but I can tell you that Kent had over 40 specialty certifications, in PADI, NAUI, NSS, & TDI. He was a Master Scuba Diver Trainer in PADI, and had multiple specialty cave certifications in NSS.

He was also trained in Mexico by Steve Gerrard....Steve had himself invited Kent on the upcoming Labna-Ha expedition to map a newly discovered cave system.

I will follow-up reading the rest of the thread, and can expand on his qualifications at a later time.

Once again, thankyou for your support.

Wendy

 

[nixk]

I just wanted to post my condolences to the family. Me and my fiance were OW certified by Kent this past July. He was a great instructor and a really nice guy.

Nick

 

[AmyJ]

Hello everyone,

I am Kent's wife. I just want to start off thanking everyone whom has offered up their condolences and support. This past week has been incredibly difficult, I am short on time, as Kents' interrment is taking place this afternoon.

I have just located this board and have not yet had an opportunity to read all the posts on this thread.

I do, however, want to address the speculation and critism of Kent and Micheals training and skills. I am a PADI dive-master, but not cave trained, but I can tell you that Kent had over 40 specialty certifications, in PADI, NAUI, NSS, & TDI. He was a Master Scuba Diver Trainer in PADI, and had multiple specialty cave certifications in NSS.

He was also trained in Mexico by Steve Gerrard....Steve had himself invited Kent on the upcoming Labna-Ha expedition to map a newly discovered cave system.

I will follow-up reading the rest of the thread, and can expand on his qualifications at a later time.

Once again, thankyou for your support.

Wendy

First let me offer my most sincere condolences. I can't imagine the pain you are experiencing. I am not sure how you found this, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

I believe EVERYONE on this site respects your grief and loss. While I didn't know your husband and am not cave certified, I just want to reassure you that the 'morning after' speculation that goes on here is just that. We don't know all the facts or details, and most (if not all) do not intend any criticism of your husband. In the accident forum, we simply use what we know (or THINK we know) to try and second guess what might have happened in order to give conversation for all to learn from.

I don't know how I would react to finding this sort of conversation if my husband had died in an accident, but I suspect I would feel strongly. I just want to reassure you that no disrespect is intended. Your family is in my prayers.

 

[crosing]

Wendy - My condolences on your loss. I attended the DIR-F class with Kent in September at Dutch Springs. He seemed like a really great guy. He will be sorely missed by the Central PA dive community.

There is another big discussion going on about the accident on www.thedecostop.com click on the dive flag in the header section, this will take you to the forums. About 3/4 of the way down the page under Accidents is the thread regarding Kent and Mike direct link: http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10594 . Somebody posted a map of the system they were in and the trouble they ran into. I am not a cave diver.

I have been profoundly saddened and affected by Kent and Mike's passing. Best wishes to you and your family in this time of sadness.

Regards,
Christopher Rosing

 

[Spectre]

No offense, but the accidents thread on TDS tries to leave personal feelings at the door, and have instructions that if you have personal ties to the accident, you probably shouldn't read the thread.

I think it better to point her to the Memorial thread on TDS: http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10599

 

[GDI]

There is a working group attempting to get a better application of the use of line arrows and/ vs non-directional markers (inter agency policy is a problem). Line arrows have the advantage of multifunctional reference markers. Cookies do have use as well such as marking penetration distance on traverses where they "should not" confuse another team in an emergency situation and as a quick survey marker. A few of my students do use them to ID their reels a bit better (but then a line arrow can do the same thing) If any of you have recommendations to their respective uses as far as standards are concerned please let me know via PM. I am currently working on standards within the NACD and communication techniques are always up for discussion

 

[crosing]

I'm new to decostop, sorry I didn't know.