Two Divers Die in Mexican Cenote

[Bobby]

Just looking for some clarification.
Thanks
Henry

As to the cookie issue yes the picked up thier marker then swam the wrong direction fallowing arrows instead of thier marked direction from their non-directional marker. This is a problem in the standards that I have been working on with a group of people to correct. With out making this a very long post the bottom line is that there are a lot of different ways that teams are marking thier lines and protocal is vague at best. One thing that is not addressed at all is how to use a non-directional marker to show the entrance direction that the team used. This is not a contradiction as it might first seem. A non-directional marker is used so that another team is not confused by a directional marker set against the permenant markers in the system. The marker, if used properly, can be used to tell the team using it what direction they came from. Hopefully these protocalls will be used when the new standards come out, I have submitted them but do not know what will or will not be used. This is posted only as information as to how this happened with assumptions from second hand information, it is in no way meant to judge or place blame. The divers involved in the accident were experienced and trained for the enviornment that they were in. Sorry for the long post.

Bobby

 

[Rick Murchison]

As to the cookie issue yes the picked up thier marker then swam the wrong direction fallowing arrows instead of thier marked direction from their non-directional marker.

If I'm reading this right, you believe they had placed the cookie properly on their exit line, but picked it up and then followed another line based on arrow direction. Is that right? So if they followed normal (at least the way we do it here) procedure, three divers followed the arrows rather than their team cookie before the fourth diver picked it up? I'm still trying to make sense of what happened...
Regardless, this is an incredibly sad accident. A great loss not only to the diving community but to the communities where these fine gentlemen lived and worked.
Prayers aloft for the families, friends and acquaintances...
Rick

 

[chickdiver]

As to the cookie issue yes the picked up thier marker then swam the wrong direction fallowing arrows instead of thier marked direction from their non-directional marker. This is a problem in the standards that I have been working on with a group of people to correct. With out making this a very long post the bottom line is that there are a lot of different ways that teams are marking thier lines and protocal is vague at best. One thing that is not addressed at all is how to use a non-directional marker to show the entrance direction that the team used. This is not a contradiction as it might first seem. A non-directional marker is used so that another team is not confused by a directional marker set against the permenant markers in the system. The marker, if used properly, can be used to tell the team using it what direction they came from. Hopefully these protocalls will be used when the new standards come out, I have submitted them but do not know what will or will not be used. This is posted only as information as to how this happened with assumptions from second hand information, it is in no way meant to judge or place blame. The divers involved in the accident were experienced and trained for the enviornment that they were in. Sorry for the long post.

Bobby

Sorry, Bobby- but I strongly disagree with this. Personally I think "non directional" markers are bs (and they are relatively new in usage, only a couple years at best). The ONLY directional marker you should ever trust are the ones you put down yourself- with your name on them. When you drop a marker with your name on it for whatever reason, you pick it up on the way out. THere should be no confusion for other teams in this. Even in Mexico- where there are lines to multiple exits this works- in a situation like this it is MORE importaht to directionally mark YOUR exit- rather than "following the markers". I think the real problem here is the explosion of cave diving in recent years and the increasing numbers of "vacation" cave divers who maintain poor levels of proficiency and knowledge.

 

[Mako Mark]

The ONLY directional marker you should ever trust are the ones you put down yourself- with your name on them. .

I agree. The only times I have had the bejeezus scared out of me is when I made the mistake of looking at other peoples arrows.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry, Bobby- but I strongly disagree with this. Personally I think "non directional" markers are bs (and they are relatively new in usage, only a couple years at best). The ONLY directional marker you should ever trust are the ones you put down yourself- with your name on them. When you drop a marker with your name on it for whatever reason, you pick it up on the way out. THere should be no confusion for other teams in this. Even in Mexico- where there are lines to multiple exits this works- in a situation like this it is MORE importaht to directionally mark YOUR exit- rather than "following the markers". I think the real problem here is the explosion of cave diving in recent years and the increasing numbers of "vacation" cave divers who maintain poor levels of proficiency and knowledge.

Except for the fact that I like non-directional markers I agree.

I've never dived the caves in Mexico but the first cave I did dive after my cave training is a flooded mine in Missouri. there are numerous exits (some close together) there are multiple levels and MANY Ys. The place is a real maze and the vis can be bad and many of the lines aren't through tunnels but run accross huge rooms that you can't see accross. If you get lost there's a fair chance you'll stay that way.

At any given Y there may be arrows on each branch with more arrows pointing to the nearest exit. I never wanted to add directional markers and risk confusing some one else with directional markers. In the beginning we made our own my triming the points of of line arrows. I realize that my name on an arrow should stop some one else from using it but I'll be it's something a diver could miss when confronted with a bunch of line markers, less than great vis and multiple lines. We simply place a marker on the line we entered on.

When my wife and I dive alone we usually only place one marker at an intersection. The water's in the 40s and fishing out markers all the time with heavy gloves on is a pain. We place it and pick it up together. Just like when doing a jump or gap we stop until we both acknowledge that we realize we're crossing and marking an intersection. However when we first started and when we have some one else diving with us each team member places his own marker This is simply so that if one team member picked up the marker and went the wron direction anyway (I've seen it happen) the other would have the oportunity to catch the mistake when they pick up their own marker. If divers do get seperated it also provides a way to hopefully know if the other party has come back through the intersection.

We had one guy dive with us who was leading and went with the arrows at an intersection completely ignoring our markers. My wife and I both caught the mistake and a simple flash of the light turned him around and solved the problem although I could invision teams that would have just followed the leader.

I was told of a dive in a Mexican cave where a whole team passed a jump without realizing it. I guess it was a short jump that was behind a rock and every one just took a short cut from where the line went behind the rock to where it appeared to come out. No one bothered to actually verify that it was the same line. Luckily someone in the group was familiar with the system and realized what had happened.

Using lines and markers to navigate is pretty simple but a small mistake can have grave consequences as we see.

 

[Henry]

No disrespect intended but...for discussion only.

If I am reading your post correctly. You don't believe in round cookies (which would make them non-directional markers). Let's say you had a zero vis situation by way of silt out or all light failure (yes I know that you should have min 3 lights, but work with me on this.) and you've lost your line.

You find a line in the dark. The permanant marker shows the closest exit. But a diver (or dive team) who didn't believe in round cookies placed another arrow showing their own exit in the opposite direction because it is the way they are doing their traverse (their exit is actually longer because they have placed stage and deco bottles).

You are in zero vis, you are feeling (on the line) two different markers . Wouldn't that make things worse? Would not a cookie make more sense?

Thanks
Henry

Sorry, Bobby- but I strongly disagree with this. Personally I think "non directional" markers are bs (and they are relatively new in usage, only a couple years at best). The ONLY directional marker you should ever trust are the ones you put down yourself- with your name on them. When you drop a marker with your name on it for whatever reason, you pick it up on the way out. THere should be no confusion for other teams in this. Even in Mexico- where there are lines to multiple exits this works- in a situation like this it is MORE importaht to directionally mark YOUR exit- rather than "following the markers". I think the real problem here is the explosion of cave diving in recent years and the increasing numbers of "vacation" cave divers who maintain poor levels of proficiency and knowledge.

 

[chickdiver]

No disrespect intended but...for discussion only.

If I am reading your post correctly. You don't believe in round cookies (which would make them non-directional markers). Let's say you had a zero vis situation by way of silt out or all light failure (yes I know that you should have min 3 lights, but work with me on this.) and you've lost your line.

You find a line in the dark. The permanant marker shows the closest exit. But a diver (or dive team) who didn't believe in round cookies placed another arrow showing their own exit in the opposite direction because it is the way they are doing their traverse (their exit is actually longer because they have placed stage and deco bottles).

You are in zero vis, you are feeling (on the line) two different markers . Wouldn't that make things worse? Would not a cookie make mor sense?

Thanks
Henry

No, actually it doesn't make more sense. In fact, this is one of the contingencies we train divers to deal with in cave training.

In the scenario you describe- once the line is located, the diver will tie his spool into the line, along with HIS arrow indicating the direction he chooses as "out". If he encounters an arrow pointing the opposite direction- he should turn to the oriented "exit". Upon encountering a second "confusing arrow" he has a bit of a conundrum. What to do now? personally- I would continue to swim the direction indicated by the first arrow, looking for other directional markers.

Bear in mind that the diver's team should be searching for him as well, flow (movement of water) is also a directional aid, and a "siltout" is rarely true zero visibility for more than 20- 30'.

Personally I think non directional markers are a waste of time. If I am going to put a marker down it is going to give me more information than simply "I was here". I train my students in this manner, though, of course, they are free to make thier own decisions after completion of training.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I like to use non-directional markers the first time I'm marking progress on a circuit or traverse - where I'm going to come back from the other direction on another dive - otherwise I like arrows. Since so many folks are now using cookies on exit lines, for mine I use tags rather than cookies so there is absolutely no doubt to anyone that the marker is marking nothing but a position, not a direction.
Rick

 

[simbrooks]

Heather, were you against clips/pins/clothes pegs (whatever name you might know them by) when that was the popular item for non-directionals?

As for the rest of the general discussion, so far i have yet to use a non-directional cookie, nor really an arrow beyond training as there are so many on the mainlines i use and they all point in the correct direction (for me and my exit), of course i havent been in many systems yet. IF/when i get to that stage i will use them as max distance markers on a pre-traverse dive and i might use them on my exit side of a T, Y, junction etc IF there are other arrows pointing elsewhere. Hopefully in a silt out i can either feel it and know the exit or get my mask close enough to see initials as a check on it if these events were to take place. I think they have their place, i dont currently have much use for them, but i take one just in case. I also wouldnt feel comfortable sharing a jump or gap reel outside of my team.

 

[Henry]

No, actually it doesn't make more sense. In fact, this is one of the contingencies we train divers to deal with in cave training.

In the scenario you describe- once the line is located, the diver will tie his spool into the line, along with HIS arrow indicating the direction he chooses as "out". If he encounters an arrow pointing the opposite direction- he should turn to the oriented "exit". Upon encountering a second "confusing arrow" he has a bit of a conundrum. What to do now? personally- I would continue to swim the direction indicated by the first arrow, looking for other directional markers.

Bear in mind that the diver's team should be searching for him as well, flow (movement of water) is also a directional aid, and a "siltout" is rarely true zero visibility for more than 20- 30'.

Personally I think non directional markers are a waste of time. If I am going to put a marker down it is going to give me more information than simply "I was here". I train my students in this manner, though, of course, they are free to make thier own decisions after completion of training.

In the scenario that we are discussing. As you said, as the lost diver encounters the second arrow pointing the wrong way (again, placed by a team of divers that do not believe in cookies), he now had a conundrum. But if the other dive team had placed a cookie, then the lost diver will not have the conundrum. Isn't that right?

You would continue to swim in the direction of the first arrow, but what if that was the wrong one? What if that was the one that was placed by the long-traverse team because they didn't believe in cookies?

You sound very knowledgable in cave and cave accidents. You are then probably aware of the 2 divers that died in Mayan Blue while traversing as part of team of 6. They got confused with the mutiple arrows pointing to different exits on A-line and chose to swim the long way. They didn't make it.

I am only concerned about the impact of the non-permanant arrow to a lost or panic diver. The issue of giving myself more information can be done in other ways. The method and sequence that I place my cookies definately say more then "I was here". But that's just me and my dive team.

Again, no offense intended. Just trying to learn.

Thanks
Henry

PS. When the zero vis, lost diver (no lights of any kind) has found a line. You are saying that he should tie his safety spool to the main line and then swim in a direction on the mainline? Wow, that's a lot of work. In my cave training, if we were in that scenario, we were taught to start swimming! Dealing with a safety spool in that scenario seems like a realy bad idea to me.