Two Divers Die in Mexican Cenote

[chickdiver]

In the scenario that we are discussing. As you said, as the lost diver encounters the second arrow pointing the wrong way (again, placed by a team of divers that do not believe in cookies), he now had a conundrum. But if the other dive team had placed a cookie, then the lost diver will not have the conundrum. Isn't that right?

You would continue to swim in the direction of the first arrow, but what if that was the wrong one? What if that was the one that was placed by the long-traverse team because they didn't believe in cookies?

You sound very knowledgable in cave and cave accidents. You are then probably aware of the 2 divers that died in Mayan Blue while traversing as part of team of 6. They got confused with the mutiple arrows pointing to different exits on A-line and chose to swim the long way. They didn't make it.

I am only concerned about the impact of the non-permanant arrow to a lost or panic diver. The issue of giving myself more information can be done in other ways. The method and sequence that I place my cookies definately say more then "I was here". But that's just me and my dive team.

Again, no offense intended. Just trying to learn.

Thanks
Henry

PS. When the zero vis, lost diver (no lights of any kind) has found a line. You are saying that he should tie his safety spool to the main line and then swim in a direction on the mainline? Wow, that's a lot of work. In my cave training, if we were in that scenario, we were taught to start swimming! Dealing with a safety spool in that scenario seems like a realy bad idea to me.

No offense taken. I am, most likely, a bit more "old school" than many here. I simply don't see where the non-directional markers provide any benefit. To be honest- I would expect a diver is the scenario we are using to have been aware enough on the way in to have noticed, and noted that a directional marker giving conflicting information was present, and to have backed it up (giving correct information) with one of his own. If the misdirecting marker was placed after the diver left the line- I would again expect a level of awareness that indicated "hmmmm... THAT wasn't here before". To each his own.

I think we need a bit of clarification wrt the "lost line" procedure. I don't know where you trained or under whom, but... correct lost line procedure would be to do the following:

1. deploy safety spool and tie off to a stationary object.
2. attain an exaggedrated head down, feet up position, reel out a number of feet of line and begin a search pattern (I prefer star patterns for this application) searching for the main line (or whatever line you are lost from).
3. upon finding the line tie your safety spool in and deploy a directional marker indication your direction of travel (which way you think is "out"). This allows the remainder of your team to determine your direction of travel (as they should be searching for you) as well as letting you know "which way you have been" should you backtrack for some reason.

We (in FL) teach this drill as a no lights/ blacked out mask drill- so it is done entirely by touch. I would expect anyone Intro certified or better to be proficient enough with a reel even in these conditions to perform these tasks without problem.

All in all I think proficiency and experience has a lot to do with these types of accidents. I'll grant you that I live in FL and have the opportunity to cave dive frequently- but.... in almost 10 years and 800 cave dives (as of last Sat) I have never had complete light failure nor have I ever "lost" the line except in training situations. Awareness of the line, the information on the line and your team is paramount. I often think (as I do in this case) that the failure point of the dive is the dive plan itself.

 

[chickdiver]

Heather, were you against clips/pins/clothes pegs (whatever name you might know them by) when that was the popular item for non-directionals?

As for the rest of the general discussion, so far i have yet to use a non-directional cookie, nor really an arrow beyond training as there are so many on the mainlines i use and they all point in the correct direction (for me and my exit), of course i havent been in many systems yet. IF/when i get to that stage i will use them as max distance markers on a pre-traverse dive and i might use them on my exit side of a T, Y, junction etc IF there are other arrows pointing elsewhere. Hopefully in a silt out i can either feel it and know the exit or get my mask close enough to see initials as a check on it if these events were to take place. I think they have their place, i dont currently have much use for them, but i take one just in case. I also wouldnt feel comfortable sharing a jump or gap reel outside of my team.

I have never used clips, pins or other non-directional markers. I've always used arrows for everything.

 

[Mako Mark]

I have never used clips, pins or other non-directional markers. I've always used arrows for everything.

The only thing I use cookies for is marking a turn point in a traverse.

One thing that has not been mentioned so far regarding this accident here (or that other forum that must remain nameless) is the fact that these divers died not because of a bad turn, not because of the snap and gap, but because they ran out of air.

They didnt have enough gas to reach the exit even though there has been no report of catastrophic gas loss, so either something delayed them on the exit, or they passed their point of no return gas limit.

 

[chickdiver]

Yea- actually it has been mentioned on "that other forum"- just not in the public thread. I noted that almost immediately. This dive suffered from poor planning and sloppy execution from the get go.

 

[Henry]

I think we were talking about two different things. You are talking about a lost line, deploy safety reel and locate main line. I was talking about the lost diver is already on a line but does not know which way is out.

That's why I said, wow, you would deploy a line at that point. It seems like a lot of work. I would've picked a direction and swam for it. (assuming that procedures were followed such as compass bearing, leaving a slate with name, time, PSI and direction).

Of course you are right, if all of my 3 lights failed all at the same time, it's simply time for me to check out.

I am trained by Bil Philips in Tulum. I am not sure if that alone will touch off another conversation. Haha

All this said, I think that planning your dive and communicating with all other dive parties on site is written in stone. Sometimes if there is a party in the cave before me leaving whatever type of markers on the main line, I might simply consider waiting until they exit so that there is no confusion.

Regards and save diving of course
Henry

 

[MikeFerrara]

What other forum?

 

[chickdiver]

Yea- I figured we had some crossed wires. Sometimes my brain moves faster than my fingers

 

[simbrooks]

What other forum?

Mike, you are being particularly mischievious today I think you know TDS quite well, although it was also mentioned on CDF. You also pushed a few buttons with "innocent" sounding comments on some other threads today (thinking "adult conversations" being the most recent), bored at home/work???

There is no reason why any members with interest in one of the other forums on diving cant have a link in their signature lines to their website or business and possibly even make the briefest mention of it - like TDS when prudent to the discussion and the various locations it is going on elsewhere on the net or where more info or the sought product might be - brazen advertising is not looked on so highly, its a balance thing!

 

[Mako Mark]

What other forum?

:lol:

Mike, you are being particularly mischievious today !

I noticed that too, he has been on rare form today, I think he forgot to take his grumpy pills this morning.

 

[Bobby]

Sorry, Bobby- but I strongly disagree with this. Personally I think "non directional" markers are bs (and they are relatively new in usage, only a couple years at best). The ONLY directional marker you should ever trust are the ones you put down yourself- with your name on them. When you drop a marker with your name on it for whatever reason, you pick it up on the way out. THere should be no confusion for other teams in this. Even in Mexico- where there are lines to multiple exits this works- in a situation like this it is MORE importaht to directionally mark YOUR exit- rather than "following the markers". I think the real problem here is the explosion of cave diving in recent years and the increasing numbers of "vacation" cave divers who maintain poor levels of proficiency and knowledge.

Heather I apologize for sometimes I have difficulty in stating things clearly on the internet. Non-directional markers have been used for a very long time such as cloths pins, what is new is the cookie which I may have used that term accidently. There has for many years been a protocal for non-directional markers but it has not been decisevly stated what is proper protocal for thier use which can affect the team using them. Directional arrows used improperly will make things very clear for the team using them but can lead to confusion for another team in the system. There are many places where the arrows may point opposite of the direction the team came from so placing an arrow in the opposite direction can create confusion for other teams more importantly if they have an emergency that they need to exit as quickly as possible. The double lines at Ginnie are a good example. When using a non-directional marker the team can mark it in a way that shows the team the direction of thier exit if done properly. This is what is not clear in the standards and this is what is being addressed. Sorry if I did not state things well.

Bobby