Missdirected
Contributor
lamont:Oh, I forgot, I'm supposed to be eating popcorn...
That's right. I made it just the way you like it
TSA, the Fun Never Ends..
- Thread starter Cacia
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That's right. I made it just the way you like it
TxHockeyGuy:
I've been through them in Miami.
The fact is no matter what system we implement, someone will find a way around it if they try hard enough and long enough. And even if we succeed, the terrorists will simply move to softer targets. But what else can we do?
lamont:
At least I'm not claiming access to CIA leaks.
In this life there is one thing that can be written in stone -
"Everything the government touches - they screw up!"
"Everything the government touches - they screw up!"
Tom Smedley:
So true.
FredT
Guest
The following letter was sent to every MS congress critter and Senator on Oct 1, 2001. To date I have not heard back from any of them. The airline safety situation has not changed since that date.
I suggest those not happy with the current level of "Service" at airports go back to the late 2001 and early 2002 debates in the Senate and House when the TSA was set up and see just WHO drove the federalizing of the security workforce, and then check their contributors list to find out WHY they drove hard for that solution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The discussion so far concerning terrorist protection on airlines has been concerning ineffective passenger “screening,” passenger disarmament, and the screening and hiring of government paid “air marshals” and their placement on commercial airliners. This last is an interesting concept considering that even my rough numbers show it will require between 25,000 and 100,000 of these individuals to maintain an effective protective force in the air at flight levels approaching that of Sept 10. The groups these “air marshals” could come from, and are actually being suggested by the politicians making noise about “airline security”, are the US special forces, police SWAT teams, and the FBI. I expect all these “manpower reservoir” units are going to be too over committed for the next 3 or 4 years to do much in the way of “sky marshaling” or even training of LEO “sky marshals.” The last time we tried adding “100,000 cops” to the street we got billed for 100,000 and actually got less than 40,000 over a 5-year period.
I am also a bit concerned about placing government agents on airplanes with guns. History in the US has shown that civilians are more accurate and less likely to shoot the wrong person than police, by at least a 10:1 margin! ONLY by arming select civilian passengers will there ever be enough "sky marshals" to go around. That selection has already been done for us in the 32 states with concealed carry of weapons (CCW) permits. Each flight should have 4 or more “marshals” on board indistinguishable from normal passengers. If they ARE the normal passengers all bases are covered at little to no cost to the other passengers or airline. It may be prudent for the airline to offer discounted seats to those willing to serve as “air marshals” during their business travels, but it’s not critical to the success of the program
In my not so humble opinion using "non-lethal" weapons in any war is just plain stupid! It's time we stopped the fuzzy "emotional" arguments and started thinking clearly. Terrorists should die quickly and with minimal collateral damage. The current system requires the death of ALL passengers and crew on a flight to safeguard those on the ground. The Government now has only two options in response to a hijacking.
1. Shoot the plane down from high altitude over farm country.
2. Shoot the plane down from low altitude over cities and suburbs.
The ONLY play that saves the lives of the passengers involves the people on the plane when the door closes before take off. Why fight this war with both hands tied behind our back? Currently there are about 3.5 Million CCW holders in the US. In 6 months we could bring that up to 20 million, a lot of them being veterans and frequent business fliers. The cost of the operation goes down and the safety of airline passenger goes up through the roof!
Hoplophobes need to get over it! WE CANNOT PROTECT FREEDOM BY DENYING IT! We can best protect it by enhancing it!
Specific actions needed by Congress are:
1. Recognize CCW from ANY state in ALL states the same as any other local state or court ruling under the requirements of Article IV section 1 of the US Constitution.
2. Recognize the CCW in ALL locations! These must include airplanes, courthouses, other government property, stadiums, etc.
3. Enhance weapons safety training in all walks of life including Schools, Scouts, summer camps, after school programs, etc.
4. Void foolish "weapons bans" in all public and commercial buildings. These only create a “Safe Haven” for criminals and terrorists while providing a target rich environment for them!
5. Make available to all those who choose to fly armed the appropriate ammunition and training. Providing this training is the responsibility of Congress under Article I Section 8 clause 15 and 16 of the US Constitution. Many have trained themselves at their own expense, and it's foolish of Congress not to take advantage of that in this time of emergency. The frangible ammunition is a good choice even for most CCW locations NOT on airplanes. It is not commonly used for that now due to liability lawsuit issues. Because it dumps energy in a VERY fast manner it makes a really nasty wound plaintiff’s attorneys and misguided DAs love to hate.
6. Provide legal protection from liability similar to the "Good Samaritan" laws protecting first aid responders in other emergency situations if the CCW acted in good faith to protect him/her self and/or others. This should include the specific use of frangible ammunition similar to the Glaser “Safety Slugs”, Core-bon “Bee Safe”, and Remington “Disintegrator” lines.
Frangible ammunition will generally not penetrate the first thing hit, be it a person or a seat back. Protecting airplane vitals from this stuff is child's play compared to defending it against the full metal jacket projectiles used by many police units and the military. The protection can be as relatively inexpensive as a new layer of Kevlar wallpaper on the cabins and bulkheads. Protecting people from it is another matter, so this ammunition type still is effective against terrorists without compromising the airframe.
These actions aren't PC, but they WILL WORK!
For further information on this proposal I can be contacted at:
ftagge@goldinc.com
or
228-452-3415
For more information see:
http://www.remington.com/ammo/PAGES/pistolrev/disintegrator.htm
http://www.safetyslug.com/FAQs.htm
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/conart.html
and
http://www.m1911.org/ammo.htm#corbon
I suggest those not happy with the current level of "Service" at airports go back to the late 2001 and early 2002 debates in the Senate and House when the TSA was set up and see just WHO drove the federalizing of the security workforce, and then check their contributors list to find out WHY they drove hard for that solution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The discussion so far concerning terrorist protection on airlines has been concerning ineffective passenger “screening,” passenger disarmament, and the screening and hiring of government paid “air marshals” and their placement on commercial airliners. This last is an interesting concept considering that even my rough numbers show it will require between 25,000 and 100,000 of these individuals to maintain an effective protective force in the air at flight levels approaching that of Sept 10. The groups these “air marshals” could come from, and are actually being suggested by the politicians making noise about “airline security”, are the US special forces, police SWAT teams, and the FBI. I expect all these “manpower reservoir” units are going to be too over committed for the next 3 or 4 years to do much in the way of “sky marshaling” or even training of LEO “sky marshals.” The last time we tried adding “100,000 cops” to the street we got billed for 100,000 and actually got less than 40,000 over a 5-year period.
I am also a bit concerned about placing government agents on airplanes with guns. History in the US has shown that civilians are more accurate and less likely to shoot the wrong person than police, by at least a 10:1 margin! ONLY by arming select civilian passengers will there ever be enough "sky marshals" to go around. That selection has already been done for us in the 32 states with concealed carry of weapons (CCW) permits. Each flight should have 4 or more “marshals” on board indistinguishable from normal passengers. If they ARE the normal passengers all bases are covered at little to no cost to the other passengers or airline. It may be prudent for the airline to offer discounted seats to those willing to serve as “air marshals” during their business travels, but it’s not critical to the success of the program
In my not so humble opinion using "non-lethal" weapons in any war is just plain stupid! It's time we stopped the fuzzy "emotional" arguments and started thinking clearly. Terrorists should die quickly and with minimal collateral damage. The current system requires the death of ALL passengers and crew on a flight to safeguard those on the ground. The Government now has only two options in response to a hijacking.
1. Shoot the plane down from high altitude over farm country.
2. Shoot the plane down from low altitude over cities and suburbs.
The ONLY play that saves the lives of the passengers involves the people on the plane when the door closes before take off. Why fight this war with both hands tied behind our back? Currently there are about 3.5 Million CCW holders in the US. In 6 months we could bring that up to 20 million, a lot of them being veterans and frequent business fliers. The cost of the operation goes down and the safety of airline passenger goes up through the roof!
Hoplophobes need to get over it! WE CANNOT PROTECT FREEDOM BY DENYING IT! We can best protect it by enhancing it!
Specific actions needed by Congress are:
1. Recognize CCW from ANY state in ALL states the same as any other local state or court ruling under the requirements of Article IV section 1 of the US Constitution.
2. Recognize the CCW in ALL locations! These must include airplanes, courthouses, other government property, stadiums, etc.
3. Enhance weapons safety training in all walks of life including Schools, Scouts, summer camps, after school programs, etc.
4. Void foolish "weapons bans" in all public and commercial buildings. These only create a “Safe Haven” for criminals and terrorists while providing a target rich environment for them!
5. Make available to all those who choose to fly armed the appropriate ammunition and training. Providing this training is the responsibility of Congress under Article I Section 8 clause 15 and 16 of the US Constitution. Many have trained themselves at their own expense, and it's foolish of Congress not to take advantage of that in this time of emergency. The frangible ammunition is a good choice even for most CCW locations NOT on airplanes. It is not commonly used for that now due to liability lawsuit issues. Because it dumps energy in a VERY fast manner it makes a really nasty wound plaintiff’s attorneys and misguided DAs love to hate.
6. Provide legal protection from liability similar to the "Good Samaritan" laws protecting first aid responders in other emergency situations if the CCW acted in good faith to protect him/her self and/or others. This should include the specific use of frangible ammunition similar to the Glaser “Safety Slugs”, Core-bon “Bee Safe”, and Remington “Disintegrator” lines.
Frangible ammunition will generally not penetrate the first thing hit, be it a person or a seat back. Protecting airplane vitals from this stuff is child's play compared to defending it against the full metal jacket projectiles used by many police units and the military. The protection can be as relatively inexpensive as a new layer of Kevlar wallpaper on the cabins and bulkheads. Protecting people from it is another matter, so this ammunition type still is effective against terrorists without compromising the airframe.
These actions aren't PC, but they WILL WORK!
For further information on this proposal I can be contacted at:
ftagge@goldinc.com
or
228-452-3415
For more information see:
http://www.remington.com/ammo/PAGES/pistolrev/disintegrator.htm
http://www.safetyslug.com/FAQs.htm
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/conart.html
and
http://www.m1911.org/ammo.htm#corbon
FredT
Guest
Geoff_H:
Is this based on your personal experience with CCWs, or because you don't like the option of being shot down? The second option is currently in effect and has been since Sept 15, 2001.
FT
Diver Dennis
Contributor
Especially the guy they caught peeing in the aisle...
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