Trying Tec

[TSandM]

Can't really see the problem of demonstrating valve drills kneeling. It's a complex skill which requires the students utmost attention. For clarity it makes sense that the instructor is not moving and can show all the critical attributes of the skill. Most of the tech instructors I've met demo this on their knees, even at the trimix level.

I am simply stunned by the last sentence. I have never seen ANYONE do a valve drill on their knees, not even me. If you cannot do a valve drill in such a fashion as to emphasize the critical attributes, while hovering in good trim and position in front of your students, in my opinion you have no business whatsoever billing yourself as a technical instructor. I mean, really -- I can do this!

I think putting a 10 dive diver into a set of doubles, sitting them on the bottom of the pool and letting them twist the knobs is a travesty. I do think an avid diver, who has logged some bottom time and wants to learn to use doubles for redundancy for deeper or longer dives, should be able to take an "Intro to Doubles" class if he wants to -- but even then, by that point, the diver should learn his skills in the water column. Perhaps not in perfect trim (I think it took quite a few of us a while to get our rigs balanced well and to master the body control for perfect trim) but managing solid buoyancy while doing valve shutdowns or air-sharing. If you can't do those things, you aren't ready to add anything more complicated to your diving. You should stay with your current gear, and take classes (or practice) until you can manage neutral buoyancy, good trim and position, with the basic drills of your diving level.

Encouraging people to move on when they're still not competent basic divers is a disservice to everyone involved.

 

[elan]

They shouldn't be. You should be able to reach your valves in all positions. Part of my pre-dive check is to enter the water and check I can maneuver all valves in case of a problem at the surface, would want to waste any precious helium!!!!

Im not saying it is impossible, Im saying it is more difficult. Showing some skills the way that is more difficult and the way that is not optimal at the end anyways sounds a bit strange.

I realize that it comes from a desire to exclude the buoyancy from the drill to capitalize on less experienced divers but it becomes more and more obvious that PADI teases Mr. Murphy too much and Mr. Darwyn will have to stock more of the trophys and cups for his awards.
But as always the system will come to an equilibrium one day

 

[elan]

I am simply stunned by the last sentence. I have never seen ANYONE do a valve drill on their knees, not even me. If you cannot do a valve drill in such a fashion as to emphasize the critical attributes, while hovering in good trim and position in front of your students, in my opinion you have no business whatsoever billing yourself as a technical instructor. I mean, really -- I can do this!

I think putting a 10 dive diver into a set of doubles, sitting them on the bottom of the pool and letting them twist the knobs is a travesty. I do think an avid diver, who has logged some bottom time and wants to learn to use doubles for redundancy for deeper or longer dives, should be able to take an "Intro to Doubles" class if he wants to -- but even then, by that point, the diver should learn his skills in the water column. Perhaps not in perfect trim (I think it took quite a few of us a while to get our rigs balanced well and to master the body control for perfect trim) but managing solid buoyancy while doing valve shutdowns or air-sharing. If you can't do those things, you aren't ready to add anything more complicated to your diving. You should stay with your current gear, and take classes (or practice) until you can manage neutral buoyancy, good trim and position, with the basic drills of your diving level.

Encouraging people to move on when they're still not competent basic divers is a disservice to everyone involved.

TSandM you are talking like a diver, not like a product manager of the company who is expecting the fat bonus at the end of the year

 

[DevonDiver]

Most of the tech instructors I've met demo this on their knees, even at the trimix level.

Well, as PADI apply the 'sausage factory' & 'zero to hero' models to their tech instructor program... then there will be many instructors who have no breadth of understanding beyond what they teach from the manual. Same as already happens with their recreational instructor development.

The manual shows divers on their knees... so that's how most will do it.

I'd add a caveat to Wart's statement.... "Most of the WORST tech instructors I've met demo this on their knees,.."

At Tech Trimix level... there's no excuse for that level of muppetry. The prerequisite qualifications needed for this level of training are meant to mean that the diver concerned has already gained experience in demanding conditions, has sufficient buoyancy control to maintain an accurate stops whilst dealing with any reasonable problem that might arise​. So why the idiotic backstepping?

 

[Ste Wart]

I am simply stunned by the last sentence. I have never seen ANYONE do a valve drill on their knees, not even me. If you cannot do a valve drill in such a fashion as to emphasize the critical attributes, while hovering in good trim and position in front of your students, in my opinion you have no business whatsoever billing yourself as a technical instructor. I mean, really -- I can do this!

Once again. Seeing as you have failed to read my previous posts. My instructors were; and indeed still are, IANTD Instructor Trainers. I find it; as normal, an arrogant response from the GUE section of this board. These people are better divers than you and I will ever be. And I would never have the nerve to question the ability of someone I have never met.

 

[TSandM]

wart, you explained the reason they do the demonstrations on their knees as being because they could not adequately emphasize the critical attributes of the skill while hovering. And I simply replied that it is my personal opinion that, if you can't adequately demonstrate the parts of the skill while managing your buoyancy and position, you should not be teaching technical diving. I still hold by that.

After all, why do we learn valve drills? It's because things can fail. When you have something blow inside a wreck, do you want to have to kneel to get the valves closed? No! You want to close the valve, quickly and efficiently, while maintaining buoyancy, trim and position, and staying in communication with your buddies so they can come and assist if necessary. My instructors insisted on me being able to do that, even in water barely deep enough to hover in, and I'm very glad that they did. I know that, even when I'm quite stressed, I can perform those basic skills without making my situation worse.

If that's arrogance, I'll own it.

 

[Peter Guy]

My, my, my -- what a thread and, quite frankly, of significant interest to me for a number of reasons:

a. As an OW instructor, I confess that I impress upon my students they are NEVER!!!! to kneel during class. They can be flat on the bottom, they can be on their elbows and knees -- whatever way AS LONG AS they are somewhat horizontal and NOT somewhat vertical. For that I have been called a number of names by at least one infrequent poster on this board.

Since, by the end of 4 CW sessions and 4 OW dives, most of my OW students can do their basic skills (mask flood, mask remove replace and air shares) in the water column (note, I write most, NOT all!), I can't for the life of me understand why a Technical Instructor wouldn't do ALL of their demonstrations whilst (that's for you Andy!) in the water column and horizontal.

Wart -- if that makes me a GUE/UTD/DIR arrogant fanatic -- so-be-it. Better a very good fanatically arrogant dive model than otherwise.

b. I've been asked by a couple of Technical Instructor Trainers to do an IDC with them but I've decided to do the PADI Tech IDC -- in no small part BECAUSE of the marketing push this 800 pound gorilla is doing. In reading this thread I am a bit concerned that "some people" may decide that BECAUSE I will be a PADI Tec 40 instructor, I will have no business teaching the course. (Note -- they may be right but NOT because it is PADI but that is another thread.)

However, from what I have seen, there is nothing inherently wrong with the PADI system -- just as I find nothing inherently wrong with the PADI OW system. (In fact, I find the PADI OW system quite good.) So, I will become a PADI Tech Instructor (I hope) and, I guess, I'll just have to suffer whatever slings and arrows come my way.

c. DevonD made a comment about teaching such nefarious things as Gas Management. Would you think it is appropriate to teach this at a "Discover Tec" time? Or would this be more in line with another poster's POV regarding Gas Management:

Same goes with the Gas Management "seminar" ... too much, and to the wrong audience - despite being associated with a modern teaching organization, these methods appear like the old school of diving instruction, where students are initiated to a cult and path of which the instructor is one of the gurus - someone whose fountain of knowledge a student must feel fortunate to drink from, and a status to aspire to and whose ranks hopefully, over time, be co-opted in.

d. Last comment about the thread so far -- IF, in fact, the "Discover Tec" is as described by Wart, then, IMHO, it is all wrong. "Tec Diving" does not appear to me to be about gear but about "The Two Ps -- Planning and Precision." Learning how to twiddle one's valves has nothing to do with either Planning or Precision. OTOH, learning Gas Management strategies (as suggested by Andy) is certainly about Planning -- or perfecting one's control of position in the water column is certainly about Precision. Becoming a monkey and doing things on one's knees teaches nothing about EITHER Planning or Precision.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Once again. Seeing as you have failed to read my previous posts. My instructors were; and indeed still are, IANTD Instructor Trainers. I find it; as normal, an arrogant response from the GUE section of this board. These people are better divers than you and I will ever be. And I would never have the nerve to question the ability of someone I have never met.

... their diving ability is not what's in question ... it's their teaching methods that would cause me to say "hmmmm" ...

Among other things, it's more difficult to reach your valves from a kneeling position ... if you're horizontal you can reach back with the other hand and hoist the rig up a bit where it's easier to reach ... gravity won't let you do that when you're kneeling.

And GUE has nothing to do with it ... all of my tech instruction came from non-GUE instructors ... including a retired commercial diver who's been diving the deep wrecks out here and teaching tech since the 70's ... and not a single one of my instructors ever suggested I should consider kneeling for a valve drill ...

Buoyancy control is a core skill ... you shouldn't consider tech until you've mastered it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

After all, why do we learn valve drills? It's because things can fail. When you have something blow inside a wreck, do you want to have to kneel to get the valves closed? No! You want to close the valve, quickly and efficiently, while maintaining buoyancy, trim and position, and staying in communication with your buddies so they can come and assist if necessary.

... not to mention that kneeling in many wrecks or caves is a great way to blow the vis to zero ... then you've got bigger issues, even if you manage to get the valve closed ...

If that's arrogance, I'll own it.

... only if you promise to share ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Heath Sapp]

Sorry for quoting myself


I recall 250 dives ago I saw a diver in the bottom of an olympic pool and they were in perfect form and just hovering motionless. THAT made me feel inadequate and forced me to work on my trim and buoyancy.

I did the same thing see someone not move for 30 mins stay right in same spot showed I needed more work.