Trying Tec

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

So I strap on a harness, wind a 7 foot hose around my neck and maybe turn on a can light. Now I've discovered what Tec is about?

Well maybe not; agree that bouyancy is a core skill required before you start a tec class, but to me it's more about discipline to plan sensibly and stick to the plan. It's also about situational awareness, comfort with the equipment and skills to handle issues that arise on your own without surfacing (or using your knees).

I don't see how you can experience this sense of responsibility by doing a valve drill on a platform. If anything I would argue you get a bit of a distorted view of Tec.

As an aside, I did my core skills with Padi (including Peak Performance Buoyancy) and when I dive with my GUE Tec buddies there is no problem . . . It's all about the instuctor.

 

[norcal_diver]

It's all about the instuctor.

This I absolutely agree. However, what is the guide line for PADI peak performance buoyance. Can anyone actually fail? with a good instructor and a dedicated student, I am sure good result can be acheived. With GUE, people actually failed fundie and they can't move onto rec3 or tech1 until they pass fundie with rec pass or tech pass. There is actually a minimun quality garanteed there. Not with PADI.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

As an aside, I did my core skills with Padi (including Peak Performance Buoyancy) and when I dive with my GUE Tech buddies there is no problem . . . It's all about the instuctor.

This might be too far off topic for this thread... but then again maybe not. Anyway, I hear what you are saying about "it's all about the instructor," but -- at least with PADI as I have experienced it -- I have found that it "has to" be about the instructor, because (or so it seems) the basic curriculum and agency attitude is not very "high."

It just struck me, as I read your comment, that it's too bad that it is so instructor dependent. Hmm, maybe I'm not saying it clearly because it's not that I want to train with poor instructors, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that with the PADI curriculum it almost seems like the instructor has to rise above the agency to be one of those good instructors. I find my self wishing that weren't so.

(Although again, to be clear: This is just my impression from my somewhat limited experience.)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I got my intro to tech and Helitrox thru the NAUI Tech program. The min requirements at the shop I trained at were 100 dives to start training, good to very good buoyancy and trim, and being able to perform all basic skills in midwater. Why anyone would want to put someone with 10 dives in doubles who quite likely has had not instruction and practice with actual buoyancy and trim is astounding. And on their knees yet? Maybe it is to have them in the "praying I survive this" position. I will allow a diver to do my AOW class in doubles if they own them and have some experience with them. But they need to show the same proficiency in them that I require anyone have to begin the class in a single tank. Basic skills hovering and in trim, good handle on buoyancy control, and able to manage the gear.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So you'd demo a valve shutdown hovering horizontally for a discover tec customer? Bear in my mind they can have a minimum of 10 dives for this experience.

Yes, absolutely I would.

If you're going to demo a skill to a student, demo it properly. At a minimum, they should know what the expectation is even if they aren't prepared to do it yet.

Demoing a skill properly helps students bypass the "bad habits" phase ... and significantly shortens the learning process. Beyond the initial pool dive, I don't even want my OW students doing their basic skills on knees ... if they MUST touch the bottom, then use a fin tip or fingertip. Putting them on their knees only ingrains a dependency on the bottom, and teaches them habits they'll then have to overcome later ... in effect, it sets a bad example.

If someone is so unsure of their buoyancy that they can't at least attempt a valve shutdown off the bottom, they shouldn't be thinking about tech yet.

I'm all for "experience" dives ... as long as the experience is realistic. Doing valve drills while kneeling isn't ... at all ... what we should be teaching an aspiring tech diver to do.

... and at 10 dives, I'd be more into encouraging them to work on the skills they've been introduced to in OW, rather than thinking about doubles ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

This I absolutely agree. However, what is the guide line for PADI peak performance buoyance. Can anyone actually fail? with a good instructor and a dedicated student, I am sure good result can be acheived. With GUE, people actually failed fundie and they can't move onto rec3 or tech1 until they pass fundie with rec pass or tech pass. There is actually a minimun quality garanteed there. Not with PADI.

OK, we are now well off topic.

I am not an instructor so have no idea of the standards for Padi. I gleam from SB that the "no student fails" policy means the bar can be quite low to get a PP Bouyancy card in your wallet. Well, so what?

The course is two dives, Gue Fundies is a week (with a lot of additional skills added). Going into either course with say 10 dives, I would expect to have poor buoyancy at the start and probably at the end.

Only I now have learnt where I need to get to and what to focus on to get there. Padi gives me a worthless piece of plastic and tells me to practice more. GUE says fail, practice then come back (or maybe gives me a provisional pass). Once i get to the standard GUE gives me a piece of plastic with a lot more credibility.

With both agencies a dedicated student who actually starts to learn bouyancy after the course can become a great diver. If you are not a dedicated student, you probably don't want to do GUE-F, but could acculate a worthless piece of plastic from Padi.

I have had buddies drop out of Tec classes. All my Tec instructors have failed people. If you take Tec course before you have core skills you should expect to fail. It should not matter what cards you have in your wallet.

 

[Ste Wart]

I am sorry if I sounded mean. But you should look for more competent (tech) instructors. My fundie instructors demonstrated all skills (one of them was valve drills) while stayed absolutely still in mid water, where there was current and surges. Not once, they have to touch the bottom for balance or buoyance. Some of these happened at depth of less than 10ft.

All my IANTD courses were undertaken with Instructor Trainers. How much more competent would you like ITT perhaps?

I don't know about GUE, but IANTD valve shutdowns have to be progressively faster with each course taken ( the times are in the standards manual). In order to achieve those times it's important to get the basic drill done to a good standard in confined water, as students then need to perform valve shutdowns on each OW dive. I remember for each course I did a kneeling Valve shutdown and then did subsequent shutdown in blue water for my OW dives, normally just above the max depth of our plan A to see if I'd blow the plan.

Other skills in the IANTD Adv Nitrox course include, removing all equipment, performing a CESA to the surface and then a surface dive to don the equipment again. Impossible to do while hovering.

During a Rebreather Try Dive the instructor had me kneel to perform some basic skills with the unit as this was the safest aspect to be in when dealing with new & unfamilar equipment. Also judging by the amount of time I spent face-planting or finning down afterwards suggest this was the right course of action.

Back to the topic. If a customer wanted to a Discover tec and had to perform a valve shutdown, not only would I have them kneel, but I would probably be the guy standing on the sand next to him to make sure he turned the damned things back on and didn't drown.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

10 dives!!!!!

You're meant to get the customer interested in tec, not make them feel inadequate.

... if they can't do simple skills off their knees, they ARE inadequate.

Why sell them something they're not ready for yet? That's just setting them up for failure ... or worse ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ste Wart]

... if they can't do simple skills off their knees, they ARE inadequate.

Why sell them something they're not ready for yet? That's just setting them up for failure ... or worse ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

There is no failure. With only 10 dives they cannot go any further. You need a minimum 30 + nitrox for TEC 40. This is an experience dive, nothing more, nothing less. Kneel the guy down, do the valve shutdown and probably take his photo as well. Don't expect anything more than that. After the experience then they can go away and aim to be become a tech diver. But it'll be a long way off.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The end result is the most important. Not what happens in confined water. If it makes more sense to kneel and show the valve drill then kneel and show it, then build on that. Don't hover in front of guy with only ten dives while you show off, it smacks of arrogance.

Why not? Arrogance has nothing to do with it ... setting the bar and providing a good example is what it's all about. When I was a DM, the (PADI) instructor who most consistently turned out good OW graduates would have his DM's demonstrate each and every skill while hovering. He'd start the students on their knees, and progress from there to fin pivot, and then to hovering. By the end of OW, the students would consistently be performing those skills mid-water. That's after eight hours in the pool and four dives.

The question is should the instructor be setting a good example, or lowering expectations so as to make students feel "adequate"? I think most folks feel "adequate" when they feel like they've achieved a degree of competence.

The Discover Tec has a minimum of 10 dives for entry, Tec 40 has 30 dives. IANTD Adv Nitrox is 25 dives as is TDI's. It is reasonable to expect the people entering these courses with the minimums to have a good level of diver ability, but not a great one. That is what the instructor is there to teach. What they get paid for in essence. Tech courses are not there to task load unreasonably, they are there to stretch the diver in order to better themselves. To walk into a class and have the instructor demand that you perform the following series of skills in horizontal aspect with a variation of only .5m is akin to military drilling and serves no benefit for the average joe diver.

I'm far less interested in someone's dive count than I am their ability to achieve success ... or their willingness to try. If you train someone on their knees, what's their incentive to try doing it any other way?

The C-card is proof the person has achieved the standard, note achieved, if they walked into a tech course being able to hover flawless while performing skills, why on earth are they taking the course in the first place?

Who said anything about hovering flawlessly? I don't particularly care if they have to touch a fintip or fingertip ... or flail around a little ... or rise or sink a little ... but I do want them to TRY! ... because until they try, they have no idea what they're capable of achieving ... and only by pushing your limits can you expand them. That ... really ... is what taking a class is supposed to achieve ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)