trolling. Or, applying new knowledge

[TX101]

Well simply from an insurance perspective - if you want to still be insured, you should never exceed your qualification. But at the extreme end of the scale, what happens when you want to dive OC beyond 100m? because that's the deepest qualification you can get.

I believe you have to stretch yourself to learn. You can't learn by doing 100 dives in a pool or shallow quarry. You need to put yourself into situations you have never been in before so you can learn from them. I think you should have the knowledge to handle yourself in case something goes wrong - but I think so long as the knowledge is correct, the source shouldn't be important.

ie. If I have dived with you before and you have good buoyancy control and can demonstrate you understand gas planning, then you can come on a decompression dive with me and I don't care if you only hold an OW card (and before people start foaming at the mouth, remember that to do the TDI deco procedures course only requires a minimum of 25 dives).

I have just come back from Menorca where we did some 'cave' diving (more like overhead swimthrough diving sometimes requiring lights). I don't have any cave experience and the most qualified people there only had cavern training. However, we all penetrated the caves and had a great time doing it.

I'm doing the TDI advanced gas blender course soon. If I wanted to, I could rent helium & oxygen and mix my own trimix (in fact, I could do this without even doing the course). I could then conduct trimix dives with no training. Would I do it? probably, if I could be bothered.. but not without talking to some qualified trimix divers first and reading everything I could about the dangers.

I guess it all boils down to the level of risk you are willing to accept.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This whole cert card thing has gotten way carried away. I wouldn't be surprised to see an underwater ear scratching class so divers could scratch their ear underwater for the first time under instructor supervision.

some one mentioned gas blending...

A freind of mine learned to mix gas in the days when non-military divers were first starting to use mixed gasses. There were no classes. He taught some one else. The guy he taught later became an instructor. Meanwhile the original blender finds himself needing a card so he went to the guy who he taught to mix. LOL so we have the student issueing a card to the teacher.

I have blender cards and was in fact a blending instructor. However, my wife usually mixes my gas because she has the time and she doesn't have a card. Oh, I taught her to blend but I never saw a reason to pay an agency.

Formal education is fine but it's not the only way to learn...and stupid plastic cards just get lost.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well simply from an insurance perspective - if you want to still be insured, you should never exceed your qualification. But at the extreme end of the scale, what happens when you want to dive OC beyond 100m? because that's the deepest qualification you can get.

I believe you have to stretch yourself to learn. You can't learn by doing 100 dives in a pool or shallow quarry. You need to put yourself into situations you have never been in before so you can learn from them. I think you should have the knowledge to handle yourself in case something goes wrong - but I think so long as the knowledge is correct, the source shouldn't be important.

ie. If I have dived with you before and you have good buoyancy control and can demonstrate you understand gas planning, then you can come on a decompression dive with me and I don't care if you only hold an OW card (and before people start foaming at the mouth, remember that to do the TDI deco procedures course only requires a minimum of 25 dives).

I have just come back from Menorca where we did some 'cave' diving (more like overhead swimthrough diving sometimes requiring lights). I don't have any cave experience and the most qualified people there only had cavern training. However, we all penetrated the caves and had a great time doing it.

I'm doing the TDI advanced gas blender course soon. If I wanted to, I could rent helium & oxygen and mix my own trimix (in fact, I could do this without even doing the course). I could then conduct trimix dives with no training. Would I do it? probably, if I could be bothered.. but not without talking to some qualified trimix divers first and reading everything I could about the dangers.

I guess it all boils down to the level of risk you are willing to accept.

While I don't worship the "stupid plastic card" like some do we should caution people here. Cave diving or staged decompression diving without a card won't kill you but doing it without the right equipment and skills sure can. Lots of non-trained cave divers have died in caves and you need more up your sleeve than good buoyancy control to correctly plan and conduct (meaning able to survive problems if they happen) a dive that requires staged decompression.

 

[msandler]

... However, my wife usually mixes my gas because she has the time and she doesn't have a card. Oh, I taught her to blend but I never saw a reason to pay an agency.

cool, she won't even need an alibi. what's that life insurance policy worth?

 

[TX101]

While I don't worship the "stupid plastic card" like some do we should caution people here. Cave diving or staged decompression diving without a card won't kill you but doing it without the right equipment and skills sure can. Lots of non-trained cave divers have died in caves and you need more up your sleeve than good buoyancy control to correctly plan and conduct (meaning able to survive problems if they happen) a dive that requires staged decompression.

Okay, maybe I came across as a bit cavalier.. You're right of course. Every dive is easy until something goes wrong.

 

[JustJoe]

Mike, would you could you please train me in advanced ear scratchin'? I been practicin with my dawg! He hates the regulator though.

I think this is beyond the c-card. This is about the fundamental way that some people view learning and expanding knowledge. The reason why I started this thread was by noticing that when someone posts about doing a new dive, they get blasted because it was beyond their education.

I bet I could read the material for most courses and become very familiar with the process (part of what I do for a living). With the right instruction (from someone qualified, not neccesarily certified) I could expand my experience and become proficient at whatever tasks are neccessary to perform in the situation. Why should I get blasted or torn down for this experience?

Once again, I was only certified for OW but was doing dives beyond the scope of that training (in this case going below 60', external wrecks, drift diving, boat diving, etc etc,). Why would I need a c-card to allow me to do what my experience has allowed me to do? Why should I be lambasted for doing these activities?

Joe

 

[JustJoe]

While I don't worship the "stupid plastic card" like some do we should caution people here. Cave diving or staged decompression diving without a card won't kill you but doing it without the right equipment and skills sure can. Lots of non-trained cave divers have died in caves and you need more up your sleeve than good buoyancy control to correctly plan and conduct (meaning able to survive problems if they happen) a dive that requires staged decompression.

Can a diver get the skills and technique from a non-professional trainer? Would it have to go through an agency to make it appropriate?

Joe

 

[jbd]

Can a diver get the skills and technique from a non-professional trainer? Would it have to go through an agency to make it appropriate?

Joe

Yes to # 1, as Mike has pointed out there are many ways to learn something.

Depends on who you talk to for question #2.

Insurance and legal types will say that its not appropriate because there is no money flow. Agencies won't like it because they didn't sell the training materials. Certified instructors won't like it because it takes away from their money flow.

 

[OE2X]

Can a diver get the skills and technique from a non-professional trainer? Would it have to go through an agency to make it appropriate?

Joe

I think it depends on the person that is the knowledge base. Yes a diver can get skills and technique from a non professional trainer. Perhaps as in my case, even better skills than from most trainers. With that said though there are areas where I don't expect a mentor to train me. The easiest way to obtain that knowledge is to find a great instructor and learn from them.

"Appropriate" in my estimation is only if you need the c-card as validation to get you into higher courses or for fills. For instance to take GUE Tech1 I have to pass DIRF and Rec. Triox. Can I learn the skills of both DIRF and Rec Triox through my mentor? Probably. To get my fills for Triox though, I'll have to present a c-card to my LDS, unless I want to go get my own air station.

Sometimes when I dive with someone who is not aware of what a 7' hose is about and I teach them, they come away with a new awareness. Do they need to take a course to learn how to use it correctly? No. I or anyone else who dives this way can help them out here. Are we creating a hazardous diver? Not as long as they stay close to their training limits.

 

[captain]

I was YMCA certified in 1970. At that time there was no AOW cert just basic SCUBA.
The course recommended, notice I say recommended not qualified to, 130 as a recreational limit. Was I then "qualified" to dive to 130 feet but once AOW was instituted I was no longer "qualified" to dive to 130 feet only 60 feet. And if I dived deeper than 130 feet before AOW certs were instituted was I diving beyond my training.

Captain