trolling. Or, applying new knowledge

[msandler]

To play devil's advocate, you say formal training. What if a truly seasoned and experienced caver (non-instructor certified) teaches another extremely experienced diver the ropes to cavern or cave.

define experienced and extremely experienced.

There are good instructors and there are bad ones...

 

[scubapro50]

Experience vs training ...... there is a need to balance both. If you feel uneasy about any type of diving you are doing then additional classes may help. Another way is to find an experience diver which will take the time to not only dive with you but explain any questions you may have. I took my first class in the late 60's and two additional "advance" classes with in five years. A friend of mine put it this way : "book learning will only get you so far (usually the dock next to the boat) but sooner or later you need to get your feet wet." I counted up all my logged dives about a month ago and it came to 867 from 5 books. In the last couple of years I have become a "vacation" diver which means I make 12 to 16 dives per year within a two week period. I don't feel any additional training is needed because I plan dives within my limitations. A lot of scubaboard members have told me to go get additional training because alot has changed in 30 years. Nonsence ...... my diving hasn't changed, the equipment might have but the basic skills I learned in 68 are still good. In fact I have knowledge that most "newbies" aren't even taught these days. Now if someone buys a diving computer or a rebreather then additional classes would be nice to learn how to work it safetly. But diving with air using my MK10 and staying above 120ft. is well within my reach.

 

[JustJoe]

define experienced and extremely experienced.

There are good instructors and there are bad ones...

Let's say Sheck Eckley is taking the time to train Jacques Cousteau.

JC has never been in a cave before. SE is going to give JC the rundown and spend the time to train him. Is this acceptable?

I use these names because they are immediately recognizable. Also, what if the experienced caver has been doing it for YEARS and never was certified? To dive it or to teach?

Joe

 

[JustJoe]

Experience vs training ...... there is a need to balance both. <snip>
I took my first class in the late 60's and two additional "advance" classes with in five years. A friend of mine put it this way : "book learning will only get you so far (usually the dock next to the boat) but sooner or later you need to get your feet wet." I counted up all my logged dives about a month ago and it came to 867 from 5 books. In the last couple of years I have become a "vacation" diver which means I make 12 to 16 dives per year within a two week period. I don't feel any additional training is needed because I plan dives within my limitations. <snip>

I hope you don't mind me using this post as an example. Here is a diver who has experience. He has a number of dives yet may not have a c-card for what is within his personal limitations. So should he make those dives?

Joe

 

[scubapro50]

I hope you don't mind me using this post as an example. Here is a diver who has experience. He has a number of dives yet may not have a c-card for what is within his personal limitations. So should he make those dives?

Joe

if you have checked my profile you see that I not only taken a basic course in 68 but advance courses in openwate that included cave diving and wreck diving, and I hold a deep diving certificate from 1972. My education came after proper training and my experience came with time. Like Dirty Harry once said "A man needs to know his limitations". Do you know yours? I do .... knowing which dives to make and which to stay away from is important. "There are old divers and there are bold divers ..... but there are very few old/bold divers left alive."

 

[cyklon_300]

of absolutes...like 'never'...

There are multitudes of OW card holders with years of experience that are more than qualified to dive past 60'...or 120' at night using a compass.

Getting an AOW card didn't bestow any knowledge that I hadn't already gained from diving within my comfort zone under a variety of circumstances.

 

[OE2X]

that would be considered a "trust me" dive and I would never do that and I recommend that any diver not do a "trust me" dive.

Not necessarily true:
I've had good and bad instructors. Grateful Diver ranks as a great instructor. With that said I have another buddy who is not an instructor that has been a mentor to me. I have learned more from him than any of my other instructors. He is GUE tech 1 certified and is happy to impart his knowledge. While he doesn't have the credentials to teach, he does have the life experience. No he is not a cave diver, but I suspect that if that was his desire he could/would become one and do it in excellent fashion. My point is - you don't have to have the instructor cert to be a fine teacher as long as you stay within your knowledge base. There are many instructors out there that are teaching AOW etc... that don't have half the knowledge or experience that my friend has.
Who do you think I should trust?

 

[miketsp]

Never.

During whatever course you're taking your instructor should prepare you (and you should be prepared) to make any dives for the course in advance. For example, all the principles that apply in deep diving apply in shallow dives too, so you should never need to dive beyond your training.

I don't think the original question related only to dives during courses.

I also think it's interesting how many people think that depth is a measure of training level.
I have seen just as many stress situations in shallow diving.
For example, a couple of weeks ago we were diving in what can only be described as ideal circumstances. Flat calm, the sea seemed to be covered in oil, no wind, no current, good vis about 15m, max depth 15m but lots of life at 7m and a mixed group of newbies and experienced divers. There was a small inflatable auxiliary with a 3.3HP outboard to pick up anybody that surfaced too far from the boat and wanted a lift back.
At the end of the dive everything changed in less than 5 minutes. A cold front that was only due that evening according to the forecast came in early and with unexpected intensity.
Literally in a just a few minutes we had current, rough seas, howling wind, poor vis, a dive boat with a dragging anchor and an inflatable that was now underpowered and incapable of making headway in the breaking seas.
The next couple of hours were a lesson that few in the group will forget.
Just getting the divers back on board and then battling back to shore gave many in the group a new perspective on diving and what's involved.
That's experience and there's no substitute. Training gives you a basis to take decisions but you can only apply your training if you keep a cool head and don't panic.

 

[JustJoe]

if you have checked my profile you see that I not only taken a basic course in 68 but advance courses in openwate that included cave diving and wreck diving, and I hold a deep diving certificate from 1972. My education came after proper training and my experience came with time. Like Dirty Harry once said "A man needs to know his limitations". Do you know yours? I do .... knowing which dives to make and which to stay away from is important. "There are old divers and there are bold divers ..... but there are very few old/bold divers left alive."

Sorry if I offended, I was trying to show an example of someone who had the experience but not the training (except that you had the training). I did not check your training level and did not mean to imply that you were diving outside of your limitations.

You state my point exactly though timing is the issue. Your quote, "My education came after proper training and my experience came with time." What if the education came before the formal training?

Joe

 

[The Kraken]

JustJoe,
It's kinda like this, the military thinks, for the most part, that only a commissioned office has the ability to fly.

Experience vs training . . .

I'll take the old barn stormer that's still alive any day.

You can study your butt off and still be a dangerous diver.

"You don't get old by bein' no fool . . ."