trolling. Or, applying new knowledge

[BigJetDriver]

The majority of my "don't dive beyond your training or comfort level" comments to other divers involve "tech" diving such as overhead, where I do not think that learning by experience without any formal training is a good idea.

I would have to echo Wendy's comments in this wise; you may not survive your learning experience if you are too far beyond the edge (i.e. too far in or too far under)!

Get guidance. Get training. Then you can push the envelope successfully!

Cheers!

 

[Jason B]

My question is how did advances in diving happen? How did cave diving come about? Who trained the first cave diver so he could dive in a cave, and how did they know what to teach him? How did we start using things like nitrox? I'm sure the gas mix was around long before the card was thought of.
The whole "trust me dive" comeback gets old quick.
Some people have great reading comprehension skills, some don't.
Some people are visual learners, some are not.
What works for you, may not work for me (from a teaching stand point).
What you call a bad instructor I might think of as a good instructor (due to differences in learning styles and teaching styles).

Jimi Hendrix would disagree with your thoughts on formal training.

 

[Wendy]

My question is how did advances in diving happen? How did cave diving come about? Who trained the first cave diver so he could dive in a cave, and how did they know what to teach him? How did we start using things like nitrox? I'm sure the gas mix was around long before the card was thought of.
The whole "trust me dive" comeback gets old quick.
Some people have great reading comprehension skills, some don't.
Some people are visual learners, some are not.
What works for you, may not work for me (from a teaching stand point).
What you call a bad instructor I might think of as a good instructor (due to differences in learning styles and teaching styles).

Jimi Hendrix would disagree with your thoughts on formal training.

Let me explain for you what I mean by a "trust me dive" famous last words sometimes are "trust me, it'll be fine". when a diver blindly follows another divers lead into a dive that is beyond his training or both their trainings. Goes along the same lines as in cave diving when an ow diver says "we'll just go in a little bit" again famous last words and in that case I saw the end reult when 2 ow divers died thinking they would just poke their heads up. If I seem to be on a soapbox about training its because I witnessed too many needless deaths in caves my first 6 months in cave country.

If you want a good history of cave diving read sheck exley's caverns measureless to man and the book the cave divers (cna't recall the author) they both discuss cave diving and its beginnings.

 

[Mako Mark]

What if a truly seasoned and experienced caver (non-instructor certified) teaches another extremely experienced diver the ropes to cavern or cave. Being informal yet effective, is this not acceptable. (I wasn't going to do "what if's" but I am trolling after all).

Where is the line drawn?

.

in a cave, lines are not drawn, they are tied off... Drawing the line will get you killed.

My question is how did advances in diving happen? How did cave diving come about? Who trained the first cave diver so he could dive in a cave,
.

If you want a good history of cave diving read sheck exley's caverns measureless to man and the book the cave divers (cna't recall the author) they both discuss cave diving and its beginnings.

Here it is, killer book I just finished reading it the other day.

the cave divers

 

[Don Burke]

So the question part of this trolling expedition. When does it become appropriate to dive beyond your previous training?

I consider that to be a trick question. Diving beyond your training is not a good idea. Diving beyond your experience is usually required to learn things.

Does reading the book make it ok? Is it the card? Experience? When does it become acceptable?

That is relative. I had no problem diving doubles even though I never had any training with doubles. I run a scooter with no formal training. My spearfishing training consisted of talking to some spearfishermen, learning how to operate the gun, and then going out to try it. My drysuit training consisted of reading up on it and then going out and trying it.

I would not have done my first dive with deco gasses without an instructor and the coursework.

I would not dream of going into a cave without formal training and a very experienced cave diver with me for at least the first few months, probably longer.

For some things, the books are good enough. For other things, the stakes are too high.

Drawing a line would be tough. I suppose the level of risk would set it.

There is little or no diving activity that has not been done, so trial and error is not normally an option.

 

[miketsp]

..snip..
There is little or no diving activity that has not been done, so trial and error is not normally an option.

With due respect I think that last sentence should read

There is little or no diving activity that has not been done, so trial and error is not normally necessary.

Risks are taken when pioneering. Why run risks just to reinvent the wheel?
Training is learning from the experience of others.

 

[Don Burke]

With due respect I think that last sentence should read

There is little or no diving activity that has not been done, so trial and error is not normally necessary.

Risks are taken when pioneering. Why run risks just to reinvent the wheel?
Training is learning from the experience of others.

I like your way better.

Nice catch.

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

Getting trainned for cave diving surely is a good idea. However, getting a Boat diving specialty is a waste of money. Many of the rec diving specialties are little more than hired dive buddies. Yes the instructor makes a big difference, but the student is the greatest factor. As a student you can study most the specialties and do well without an instructor. Having a good mentor works well also. I think if you want to do deep diving you would be wise to go with experienced deep divers first. Does that mean you need a class? Maybe. I don't think it would be wise to read an book and then go to 100+ when your deepest previous dive was 45 ft. But if you have slowly worked your way down to deeper depths over time, your may do just fine. Some divers I think should remain at shallower depths for their whole dive career no matter how good their instructor was. It totally depends on the student. Again, this does not extend to the area of Tech diving that is significantly more involved and requires detailed instruction.

 

[scubafool]

Training is learning from the experience of OTHERS. Experience is learning from your OWN experience. Both have their place.

During training, your instructor (formal or otherwise) will take you on a dive to, say, 60'. After training you would ideally limit your depths to less than 60' for some time until you gain more experience & comfort, & then gradually increase your depths. Once you hit 60', you have reached the limits of your TRAINING. Now if you were to dive in familiar areas to 65', you might be exceeding your training, but not neccessarily your personal comfort zone. If five more feet of depth really bothers you, you should probably decrease by at least 20' & start all over. Somewhere along the way, a thinking diver will start worying about redundancy for their gas supply, but that is another discussion. Eventually you will end up with a diver doing 100'-120' dives that is quite capable of AND quite comfortable with doing these dives. Where did this diver exceed their training? At 60' 1". Where did this diver exceed their abilities? Never.

Moving on to the formal training thing. First let me say that I have some formal training, and I am working towards getting comfortable diving to the limits of my present certification. But suppose I, a certified cavern diver, were to meet someone who has been diving the caves of Florida for a considerable amount of time, is well known throughout the community as an excellent cave diver, has good people & communication skills, is willing to take the time & do the dives with me, etc & etc, what would make him or her less of a worthy instructor than any of the many highly respected instructors around this area? The fact that he is not authorized to give me a certification card from one of the major agencies? In fact, it is possible, if not probable, that this person might give me more time than a paid instructor would be able to, and therefore give me better instruction.

Now if you want to learn to cave dive inside of two weeks, look up someone other than my hypothetical mentor. If, however, you want to spend some time, there is no reason that this same hypothetical mentor can't teach you to perform cave dives as safely as possible. Just like, or perhaps better than, an instructor teaching for an agency. BTW, if you are my hypothetical mentor, PM me, I've been looking for you, LOL.

 

[Jason B]

If you want a good history of cave diving read sheck exley's caverns measureless to man and the book the cave divers (cna't recall the author) they both discuss cave diving and its beginnings.

it appears that my post went right over your head. I have no intrest in the beginning of cave diving. I was trying to make a point (which you missed).