trolling. Or, applying new knowledge

[Wendy]

it appears that my post went right over your head. I have no intrest in the beginning of cave diving. I was trying to make a point (which you missed).

but if you read these books you will see that people died or came very close to it for doing diving that they were not trained to do and they are lucky that they survived and they say how important it was to have some sort of formal training set up and a set of guidelines to follow when doing that type of diving.

 

[Jason B]

Wendy, I don't doubt that people have died when diving in caves while untrained. I will also venture to say that people have died who did have formal training in cave diving.
I don't deny that cave diving is a speacialty like no other (maybe I should say overhead environments).

When I was in school in the Navy, I remember one of my teachers trying to explain to a classmate how a particular radar tracked a helicopter. He was having no luck. After reading about it in the tech manual I asked if I could attempt to explain it, after my explanation the instructor said "now I think I understand how it works". An instructor teaching from a book someone else wrote doesn't ensure the instructor understands all aspects of the written material. It all has to do with reading comprehension (a lost skill here in america).

What makes the info more valuable because it came from a humans mouth instead off a written page? If your reading comprehension skills are good...nothing. How do you know that the person teaching you the book understands or comprehends what is actually saying. This is kind of a twist in the learing community...books are bad, but a teachers interpretation of said written book is good? I disagree.

 

[Wendy]

Wendy, I don't doubt that people have died when diving in caves while untrained. I will also venture to say that people have died who did have formal training in cave diving.
I don't deny that cave diving is a speacialty like no other (maybe I should say overhead environments).

When I was in school in the Navy, I remember one of my teachers trying to explain to a classmate how a particular radar tracked a helicopter. He was having no luck. After reading about it in the tech manual I asked if I could attempt to explain it, after my explanation the instructor said "now I think I understand how it works". An instructor teaching from a book someone else wrote doesn't ensure the instructor understands all aspects of the written material. It all has to do with reading comprehension (a lost skill here in america).

What makes the info more valuable because it came from a humans mouth instead off a written page? If your reading comprehension skills are good...nothing. How do you know that the person teaching you the book understands or comprehends what is actually saying. This is kind of a twist in the learing community...books are bad, but a teachers interpretation of said written book is good? I disagree.

That is exactly why I checked different instructors when I recieved my cave training, I wanted someone that knew what they were doing and someone that cave dives for themselves and not just when they are teaching.

 

[JustJoe]

That is exactly why I checked different instructors when I recieved my cave training, I wanted someone that knew what they were doing and someone that cave dives for themselves and not just when they are teaching.

But what makes a "certified" instructor any better than an experienced diver who can teach and pass on the proper knowledge?

Joe

 

[weekender]

But what makes a "certified" instructor any better than an experienced diver who can teach and pass on the proper knowledge?

Joe

agencies train their instructors to teach the curriculum. so there is more to being a good intructor than just knowledge. you can be an excellent diver and a horrible intructor. its about knowing how to pass on the knowledge in a safe and informative way. with that said i'd like to mention a very important reason why a certified instructor is always better than a good friend. Liability!! when i have a student in the water i watch him like both my homes are on the line, why? because they are. maybe your buddies are going to watch you as much but i think people should find it reassuring to know that the person responsible for them have a legal responsibility to insure their safety. just my 2cents

 

[JustJoe]

So I am reading the PADI AOW book. I am specifically interested in some dives and could care less about others. A thread in another area of this board made me read about altitude diving. Let me mention at this point that there is nothing that calls to me to dive in cold, dark water. Doesn't turn me on at all. To each their own.

After reading the section, and learning about the need to adjust the dive plan because of the effects of the difference in pressure, let's say I have a good understanding of the risks. (ok just pretend that I have a good understanding of the risk). Why couldn't I then pass my dive plan past an experienced altitude diver and if it passes, do the dive.

I understand altitude sickness, the need to acclimate myself to the environment (for decompression and thin air). I follow good dive procedures by checking the dive area, discussing the dive plan with the buddy, checking equipment, etc. I have the experience to deal with open water environments and have now tweaked my knowledge for altitude diving. Why shouldn't I make the dive?

Joe

>once again, this is hypothetical. I am not going to make altitude dives. Sea level in nice warm South Flordia water is fine with me

 

[JustJoe]

agencies train their instructors to teach the curriculum. so there is more to being a good intructor than just knowledge. you can be an excellent diver and a horrible intructor. <snip>

But the same could be said for instructors. I had a run in with one just the other day. I had to fire him. Nice guy, lots of experience, but couldn't I couldn't depend on him. In my mind a terrible instructor.

So, once again, just because an instructor knows the curriculum of a particular agency makes them more qualified to teach? I find it hard to believe. I learned to drive a dump truck from a friend, not an instructor. I have taught several of my friends how to build computers. But I am not certified to teach computer technicians from an accredited school.

The ability to make a student understand the material is what makes a good instructor. Whether it is an approved curriculum OR industry wide recognized proper procedures garnered from years of experience and staying current with the changing technical data. I am sure that all the agencies teach the same procedures, no?

Joe

 

[Wendy]

I have taught several of my friends how to build computers. But I am not certified to teach computer technicians from an accredited school.

Joe

Ya but your friends don't die if they don't build the computer correctly.

 

[The Chairman]

Competent divers should be about ONE thing... reducing risk.

No, you can't eliminate it; only reduce it to acceptable levels.

Learning to dive and learning to dive in the overhead environment should be systematic, thourough and complete with no "shortcuts". "Informal" training has a bigger potential to leave out pertinent llife saving info. While this might be adequate for some aspects of diving, I feel strongly that these "introduction" courses need to be done only by those trained to teach and to manage student risks.

I agree with Wendy... attempting to learn these skills from a "buddy" is tantamount to doing a series of "trust me" dives. Why take the risk? Personal responsibility dictates that I get the best traiing possible.

But it appears that some are merely looking for "permission" to do this. Well, you don't need any from us. There are no "Scuba Police" out there waiting to bust you (except at Blue Spring) and you won't find me trying to stop you from exceeding your skills and training. You and ONLY YOU can determine if you are ready for a particular dive. I pray that you make an accurate assessment. Say you have been to 70 ft... do you dare attempt 75 ft without the aid of an instructor? Well like some drysuit diver's underwear... "It Depends". How are the OTHER factors of the dive... the visibility? the temp? the current? the bottom composition? There is far more to the dive than just depth. However, if you can only see this one factor, than I suggest that you do need more training.

Remember... ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety. Your vision of "personal responsibility" will determine how much training you need for the dives you are doing. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not dive beyond your skill or training. There is nothing down there worth dying for.

 

[JustJoe]

Ya but your friends don't die if they don't build the computer correctly.

I knew that was going to be the response! But people were at risk when I learned to drive a dump truck!

Joe