Treat every dive like a tech dive

[dumpsterDiver]

Yeah, but the point is that there are different types of diving and different influential training organizations. GUE cave divers and northeast wreck divers both have safe diving practices, but there may be differences in the local cultures and their approach to planning.

The choice isn't enough gas vs. not enough gas, it's whether or not you consider your buddy's gas in your planning or ignore it. I ignore it. Nice to know it's there as plan C, but I'm still not going to plan a dive where buddy separation would significantly increase my risk.

I dive solo often, but when I am diving with another person, I need to reserve MORE air than when I am alone. The discussion seems to be going the opposite direction. I'm confused?

 

[doctormike]

I dive solo often, but when I am diving with another person, I need to reserve MORE air than when I am alone. The discussion seems to be going the opposite direction. I'm confused?

Well, more air is always great, especially if you are thinking about multiple failures.

But if each of you is planning to be self sufficient in terms of gas, then neither of you needs to reserve more gas than if you are diving solo. On the other hand, if you are planning a reserve for not only yourself but for your buddy, and your buddy is the controlling diver, then yes, you would certainly need more gas than for a solo dive of the same profile.

Kind of a side tangent, just pointing out that there are different approaches to planning and while they both can be done safely, including a buddy's gas in your planning does change your dive plan. A difference between the team diving approach and the same ocean approach.

 

[CuzzA]

This thread has given me great entertainment on a dreary, cold Sunday afternoon, so thanks for that lol .

I just want to throw in my two cents as a new diver who likes to people watch and observe (especially on dive boats!) - I think most regular divers are very curious, adventurous human beings who are usually of above-average intelligence. Sometimes this above-average intelligence mixed with a natural inclination to learn more / do more creates a perfect storm of what can only be described as earnest ignorance, which is both ironic and unfortunate. I think Bob was spot on when he kindly referenced the "50 dive expert" concept ... as new divers we're really eager to be "real" divers and feel comfortable in a niche sport, and sometimes especially eager new divers will overcompensate for this by completely talking out of their ass. I wish more new divers were comfortable saying, "I'm new and I don't know a lot yet" because hey, that's okay! More than okay, actually; it's expected.

My husband and I just went on our first diving vacation and we met and made friends with quite a few different divers, and all of them were open and receptive when we said we just got OW certified this past summer and were total newbies. In fact, they welcomed our questions and gave us a lot of good pointers that we may have not gotten if we had been too busy trying to prove that we knew more than the average beginner. A perfect example is this - it was our first boat dive, so when the DM told me to do a giant stride off the back of the boat I quickly said, "Sorry, I've never done this except into a pool in open water training ... can you walk me through how to do it again?" He had no problem with it, I did it just fine that first day and for the rest of the week, and everything was great. This was in stark contrast to the guy following me into the water who had all of his own, very expensive gear and an elitist air about him as a know-it-all diver who only wanted to talk to the DMs and experienced divers ... and who then proceeded to do clumsy belly flops into the water on every dive because he has apparently never mastered the giant stride. :shocked2: It became apparent throughout the week that he wasn't nearly as skilled as he talked himself up to be but he desperately wanted to be, and that's a recipe for, well, belly flops into the water! In all seriousness, he was a smart guy who had probably excelled in his OW class and had read all there is to read and yet he still didn't have the humility to say, "Can you help me figure out how to do a proper giant stride?" to anyone along the way. In fact, I have a suspicion that if someone had tried to correct him, he wouldn't have been too receptive ... which has been seen in this thread as well.

In short, the only way you get to know what you're talking about is to (1) dive more, (2) train more, and most importantly - (3) listen more.

I'll respond to this because Bob's thread was directed toward me. I've never heard of a 50 dive expert, maybe it's a ScubaBoard thing, but everything you're describing sounds like ego. And certainly if we want to stick to the topic, ego or showing someone up has no place in diving let alone applying tech to rec. It's been mentioned quite a few times in this thread about having the right mindset. I think being confident is good, egotistical is bad and having no confidence in what you're doing is just as dangerous. IME, people who lack confidence tend to freeze under pressure, unable to make a decision and often make the wrong decision regardless of the activity.

And so how do we become better, safer, confident divers?

(1) dive more, (2) train more, and most importantly - (3) listen more.

Or in other words "gain experience". Which is what I was suggesting could be accomplished even without tech training. Thanks for making my point better than I did.

After logging another dive today I again gain more experience. Today was shooting video of my buddy's aquaculture site. This dive I got to experience working in the strongest current yet for me which came unexpected during slack tide. Practiced using the concrete pilings to get out of the current and more buoyancy control with my lungs. I can tell with every plunge I'm getting better and better. Every dive is becoming much smoother and calculated. And that can only be credited to experience.

As far as the 50 dive expert, I think it's more of a symptom of message boards. I participate in many sports and hobbies and their corresponding message boards and typically the new guy starts to contribute once he has more experience and feels confident he knows what he's talking about. We can shut these people up fast (myself included), (won't be much of a growing message board) or have a discussion.

Anyway, back to the current discussion I do agree the solo diver mindset is definitely a great approach. Complete self reliance. I'm finding myself lurking in the solo forum a lot recently.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Well, more air is always great, especially if you are thinking about multiple failures.

But if each of you is planning to be self sufficient in terms of gas, then neither of you needs to reserve more gas than if you are diving solo. On the other hand, if you are planning a reserve for not only yourself but for your buddy, and your buddy is the controlling diver, then yes, you would certainly need more gas than for a solo dive of the same profile.

No. The team approach is based on shared resources. It's all about the Team.

Pick / develop your team carefully.

My backup gas is on my teammates back. We are a planning on one failure *per team*, not one failure per diver. It is this first failure that turns the dive.

Losing contact with your team is a failure, and will result in a detailed debrief. If I can't see you, or touch you during the dive it will be a subject of conversation post dive.


Tobin

 

[doctormike]

No. The team approach is based on shared resources. It's all about the Team.

Pick / develop your team carefully.

My backup gas is on my teammates back. We are a planning on one failure *per team*, not one failure per diver. It is this first failure that turns the dive.

Losing contact with your team is a failure, and will result in a detailed debrief. If I can't see you, or touch you during the dive it will be a subject of conversation post dive.


Tobin

I'm not sure, but I think that you are agreeing with me. Hard to tell.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Well, more air is always great, especially if you are thinking about multiple failures.

For team diving rock bottom is based on getting both divers to the surface while doing all stops. The assumption is there is a single failure where one diver loses their gas supply completely. A clogged dip tube, failed diaphragm or failed first stage swivel can do that. Those are all rare failures, but they have all happened. They are also rare enough that I dive solo from time to time. When I do dive solo the reserve gas supply is enough to get myself to the surface. That is less gas reserve than when team diving. The self sufficient approach means if you lose your gas supply entirely the two of you will not have enough gas to make to the surface in a controlled fashion. CESA is an option but having extra gas would make for a safer ascent. But loss of gas is probably less common than a temporary loss of attention or judgement. That should not happen but that is hard to fix without a team.

 

[Storker]

What would happen if you lost your buddy and didn't have spare air or an SMB?

IIRC they taught this in OW class.

Have you completely forgotten "search for a minute, then surface"?

I also seem to remember being taught something about monitoring one's gas consumption to avoid OOG incidents.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Well, more air is always great, especially if you are thinking about multiple failures.

But if each of you is planning to be self sufficient in terms of gas, then neither of you needs to reserve more gas than if you are diving solo. On the other hand, if you are planning a reserve for not only yourself but for your buddy, and your buddy is the controlling diver, then yes, you would certainly need more gas than for a solo dive of the same profile.

Kind of a side tangent, just pointing out that there are different approaches to planning and while they both can be done safely, including a buddy's gas in your planning does change your dive plan. A difference between the team diving approach and the same ocean approach.

Seriously? I can start an ascent from 100 ft with 300 psi in a single steel tank. I can make it (solo) easily! If I am calm and controlled and just relax and float up. If anything goes wrong, I can switch to a pony and have enough air to make the ascent.

The problem is that how can I be assured that EVERY other diver has enough gas for themselves and will not need help? So if I am at 300 psi and a panicked diver snatches my primary regulator away and starts breathing like a freight train... We are in a serious problem. I will have enough for me in the pony, but he is going to run out.

Clearly, for diving with a buddy, I should be planning differently than solo.

 

[doctormike]

For team diving rock bottom is based on getting both divers to the surface while doing all stops. The assumption is there is a single failure where one diver loses their gas supply completely. A clogged dip tube, failed diaphragm or failed first stage swivel can do that. Those are all rare failures, but they have all happened. They are also rare enough that I dive solo from time to time. When I do dive solo the reserve gas supply is enough to get myself to the surface. That is less gas reserve than when team diving. The self sufficient approach means if you lose your gas supply entirely the two of you will not have enough gas to make to the surface in a controlled fashion. CESA is an option but having extra gas would make for a safer ascent. But loss of gas is probably less common than a temporary loss of attention or judgement. That should not happen but that is hard to fix without a team.

I guess I don't really understand what the actual controversy is here that we are discussing. I understand the concept of team diving, I'm just not sure if you and others are saying that you can't have safety and redundancy without team diving.

A solo diver, or a diver who is diving with a buddy but whose gas planning involves self-sufficiency, needs to have redundancy of their gas supply, and needs to plan a dive so that a reasonably foreseeable failure will still allow for a safe ascent. This can involve near completely redundant systems (e.g. manifolded doubles), or completely redundant systems (e.g. sidemount or independent back mounted doubles).

So it is true that if you are doing your planning as a self reliant diver and you lose your entire gas supply, you are left with only CESA as an option. But part of that planning should be to ensure that losing your entire gas supply is unlikely enough that it is placed in the "multiple failures" category of risks that even team divers don't plan for.

---------- Post added December 14th, 2015 at 07:44 AM ----------

Seriously? I can start an ascent from 100 ft with 300 psi in a single steel tank. I can make it (solo) easily! If I am calm and controlled and just relax and float up. If anything goes wrong, I can switch to a pony and have enough air to make the ascent.

The problem is that how can I be assured that EVERY other diver has enough gas for themselves and will not need help? So if I am at 300 psi and a panicked diver snatches my primary regulator away and starts breathing like a freight train... We are in a serious problem. I will have enough for me in the pony, but he is going to run out.

Clearly, for diving with a buddy, I should be planning differently than solo.

Yes, of course. Still don't understand what we are disagreeing about. The scenario that you describe sounds like you are diving as a team, but doing solo gas planning.

You either do team gas planning or solo gas planning. Are you saying that as long as there are other divers in the area, you need to do team gas planning? Or are you saying that team gas planning is the only safe way to do it, and having each diver being self sufficient is inherently unsafe?

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'll respond to this because Bob's thread was directed toward me. I've never heard of a 50 dive expert, maybe it's a ScubaBoard thing, but everything you're describing sounds like ego. And certainly if we want to stick to the topic, ego or showing someone up has no place in diving let alone applying tech to rec. It's been mentioned quite a few times in this thread about having the right mindset. I think being confident is good, egotistical is bad and having no confidence in what you're doing is just as dangerous. IME, people who lack confidence tend to freeze under pressure, unable to make a decision and often make the wrong decision regardless of the activity.

And so how do we become better, safer, confident divers?


Or in other words "gain experience". Which is what I was suggesting could be accomplished even without tech training. Thanks for making my point better than I did.

After logging another dive today I again gain more experience. Today was shooting video of my buddy's aquaculture site. This dive I got to experience working in the strongest current yet for me which came unexpected during slack tide. Practiced using the concrete pilings to get out of the current and more buoyancy control with my lungs. I can tell with every plunge I'm getting better and better. Every dive is becoming much smoother and calculated. And that can only be credited to experience.

As far as the 50 dive expert, I think it's more of a symptom of message boards. I participate in many sports and hobbies and their corresponding message boards and typically the new guy starts to contribute once he has more experience and feels confident he knows what he's talking about. We can shut these people up fast (myself included), (won't be much of a growing message board) or have a discussion.

Anyway, back to the current discussion I do agree the solo diver mindset is definitely a great approach. Complete self reliance. I'm finding myself lurking in the solo forum a lot recently.

The "50-dive expert" isn't usually about ego ... nor is it meant to be in any way derogatory. It's more a description of an attitude commonly seen in divers right around the time they've had enough dives to start getting comfortable with their basic skills, and who therefore begin to feel as though they've "mastered" what they were taught.

It is something seen in divers who are active in social media, because they're usually the sort who tend to read and absorb knowledge and apply it to their experiences. But due to their limited experience, they are not aware of how much they haven't yet been exposed to. In that sense, it's more about limited perspective than ego.

It's commonly the case that divers are more confident in their knowledge at 50 dives than they will be at 500 ... because by the time they reach the latter they have developed a much broader perspective on how much there is yet to learn about the activity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)