Training can you do too much too soon?

[Diving Dubai]

Going back to specialities

PADI (and I' sure others) do themselves no favours by only putting the briefest course outline on their website. Once you dig deeper into most courses (unfortunately you'll need the instructor guide) you would be surprised how much detail some can go into

A good example is the boat diver course. There is an optional section of practical skills and knowledge which is pertinent to boat owners, and in my opinion should be mandatory for dive pro's working on dive boats. You'll never find this out from the PADI advertising and most dive centres (unless they have a boat expert on their staff

My point is don't be dismissive on specialiaities just from the title

 

[Kharon]

... The idea was to add 5 dives of different kinds with the twin goals of giving them some more useful skills and introducing them to different aspects of diving that might spur their interest and keep them diving. The goal was NOT to turn them into diving Gods.

Not diving gods (never said that) just competant to be called advanced. 5 adventure dives that don't advance diving skills (which is possible) doesn't make an advanced diver. And do Fish Identification, Photography, and some others even require a dive?

Some charters require an AOW cert for dives that they believe require advanced skills. Someone with 5 (or less) fluff dives is a danger in this situation. Nothing prevents PADI from renaming the cert appropriatly (except $$$ that is).

The idea of having only one dive in an area is that it is a taste of something you might want to pursue. If you do want to pursue it, go ahead and take the full course. If you don't like it, don't take the full course and look elsewhere for something that will pique your interest. From that point of view, requiring the diver to take the full course in something they might not like or might not need is a waste of time and money. Let's take something that makes sense here in Colorado--altitude diving. If you are going to dive locally, it is good to know about that, but, believe me, you do not need a full course with multiple dives to get the information you need.

No argument that it makes sense to get a taste before committing to the whole course. But, and it's a big BUT, the AOW card, with single dives rather than full courses, indicates a skill level that simply doesn't exist. And deep and navigation skills are things that every diver needs. You don't get them in a single, hand held dive. Again, PADI should change the name, but, and it's a big BUT, there's the $$$$$.

 

[boulderjohn]

Not diving gods (never said that) just competant to be called advanced. 5 adventure dives that don't advance diving skills (which is possible) doesn't make an advanced diver. And do Fish Identification, Photography, and some others even require a dive?

So you don't think the navigation dives and deep dives improve the diving skills?

You don't think the skills required to hover while taking a photo or avoid getting bubbles in the picture are skills related to diving? When I dived in Puerta Galera in the Philippines, all divers were required to watch a video before diving that emphasized dive technique that would avoid destroying the reef while photographing. It was more than needed. On one dive, I watched the DM go behind the photographer in exasperation and pick his fins up off the coral. On more than one dive trip I have watched a photographer kick up so much crap while getting a shot that it ruined it for other photographers.

There is a big difference between identifying fish and their behaviors in the water and in a book.

Any dive you are doing can improve your skills if the instructor is doing his or her job. In fact, I like to talk AOW students into doing dives that require fewer skills during the dive so that I can use it to individualize what we do on the dive to fit the diver's needs. For example, I like them to do the altitude dive in particular because there are no dive-related skills, freeing me to use 100% of that dive to work on whatever I have previously determined will help that diver the most. I also use dives to build skills incrementally. Whenever possible, I like to do the navigation dive early so that I can have the diver use the compass on every succeeding dive.

Some charters require an AOW cert for dives that they believe require advanced skills. Someone with 5 (or less) fluff dives is a danger in this situation.

This is a ploy based on insurance. By naming a specific certification beyond OW for more advanced dives, they have identified a specific requirement that can be applied objectively and without their judgment. If there is an incident and they are sued on the basis that the diver did not have the skills required for the dive, it would be up to the plaintiff to prove that AOW was not sufficient training. With AOW being the norm throughout the industry for such dives, they would have a very hard time proving it. If instead you had the operator make a judgment based on their opinion about the ability of each diver, the operator would have to prove to the satisfaction of a jury that the opinion was valid.

Nothing prevents PADI from renaming the cert appropriatly (except $$$ that is).

Although they kept the name "advanced open water," the course was actually named "Adventures in Diving" for decades. Changing the name of a certification level would not be too expensive, but it would be confusing for those who were certified before or after the change.

 

[Kharon]

So you don't think the navigation dives and deep dives improve the diving skills?

On a single dive - not so much. Over a full course - some.

You don't think the skills required to hover while taking a photo or avoid getting bubbles in the picture are skills related to diving?

I certainly do. But you ain't going to get those skills down on a single dive. Especially when there are a ton of other things being studied.

When I dived in Puerta Galera in the Philippines, all divers were required to watch a video before diving that emphasized dive technique that would avoid destroying the reef while photographing. It was more than needed. On one dive, I watched the DM go behind the photographer in exasperation and pick his fins up off the coral. On more than one dive trip I have watched a photographer kick up so much crap while getting a shot that it ruined it for other photographers.

Yeah. Me too. Everywhere. However, a single dive isn't going to keep them off the coral.

Although they kept the name "advanced open water," the course was actually named "Adventures in Diving" for decades.

????? If it was named "Adventures in Diving" for decades (accurate) why was it changed to AOW (inaccurate)???? To make more money because people want the "advanced" title even if i's not accurate.

Bah. Humbug.

 

[TMHeimer]

When I took AOW (2006) the manual was still called Adventures in Diving (maybe an old one, but I bought it right then from the shop where I did the course). Found it--published 2000-2003.

 

[hhmoore]

Due to my previously stated assessment of my "skills" upon completion of the PADI Open Water certification; I chose SDI's Advanced Diver certification over PADI's AOW as my next step. It requires completion of 4 specialties (one can be "no dive required" - ie Nitrox), and a minimum of 25 logged dives. It seemed a better option for me & my goals. (tdisdi.com shows an Advanced Adventure Diver option, which is listed as the equivalent to PADI AOW).

I plan on doing Rescue Diver, at some point (probably next summer, unless I manage a dive vacation over the winter)... not sure if I'll do that with SDI or PADI.

 

[Saniflush]

You don't think the skills required to hover while taking a photo or avoid getting bubbles in the picture are skills related to diving? When I dived in Puerta Galera in the Philippines, all divers were required to watch a video before diving that emphasized dive technique that would avoid destroying the reef while photographing. It was more than needed. On one dive, I watched the DM go behind the photographer in exasperation and pick his fins up off the coral. On more than one dive trip I have watched a photographer kick up so much crap while getting a shot that it ruined it for other photographers.

Right you are.

If there is one single piratical thing that has improved my buoyancy it would be trying to take pictures. When Mrs Flush and I started down the diving path she was the one who was all fired up to take pictures while I was just the casual photographer whenever she didn't want to do it. Through taking crappy or blurry shots I started concentrating more on the things that would help my shots be less crappy ie. neutral buoyancy, trim, distance from subject.

Trying to get better photos has had the great secondary effect of making me work on the things that would improve that one aspect. There is value added in most any skill progression.

 

[TMHeimer]

Skills that improve diving is an interesting topic. I've often suggested that PADI Master Scuba Diver cert. would hold more weight if only such specialties that did improve diving were counted among the 5 required. But that's a very old topic.
When you really think about it, there aren't many skills you need to be good at to do a simple dive. Good buoyancy, proper finning, breathing--you know, the basics. Compass use, unless your diving is so simple and benign you just don't need it. You don't need to know search patterns unless you have to search for something. Don't need Night, Deep, Boat (well, boat--another discussion) unless you do those dives. So it depends on the type of diving you do. I've heard that with a good instructor, UW photography can be well worth it--if you're into that.
Of course, you should keep the 20 or so basic pool skills learned in good shape (removing belt, Unit, etc.), but that's a given.

 

[Diving Dubai]

My view on Con Ed courses people should take, and even MSD was completely changes after reading a post by another SB member a couple of years ago.

That person, because they had no regular buddy took courses to incentivised themselves to go diving.

The fact they took the courses (with the same centre) meant they met other divers, which in turn led them to find new buddies and made them want to go diving. Not everyone is comfortable nor eager to turn up at a dive centre solo.

So frankly I don't see any course as worthless. I may not choose them for myself, but if the subject of the course is interesting enough to cause someone to go diving, then I'm good with it.

Often people fail to appreciate that what ever course you take, whether diving on non diving, only teaches you the basics of that subject. (think OW) to become proficient you then need to practice and gain further experience. This requires a level of self motivation

when people see others exhibiting poor skills they immediately blame the instructor which is often unfair. The Instructor probably taught that person well, but if that person leaves teh course and fails to keep up those skills it cant' be blamed on the instructor.

I use the example of Buddy checks which are always taught during OW, but some divers often think they're too cool or experienced to bother with them.

The one course I'm passionate about encouraging divers to take is the Intro to Tec (Tec 40 in PADI world) They may not have a desire to progress nor want to diver to 40m or engage in short deco, but the course gives them a tremendous amount of information and ensures they can meet a better competency of the basic skills. All of which is directly applicable to being a thinking and cautious recreational diver

 

[boulderjohn]

I play golf from time to time, and I am pretty mediocre at it. Also from time to time, I take lessons in a vain attempt to improve. I pay for those lessons, and they aren't cheap. Compared to scuba, they are extremely expensive, many times the cost per hour of instructor time.

One key difference is that in golf, I am so unlikely to die during a class that it is not even a remote concern for the instructor. Because it can happen in scuba, instructors almost always teach specific classes approved by agencies and the insurance companies. In a lawsuit, they will be protected by the fact that they were using procedures fully approved by that agency (and most other agencies as well).

A second key difference is that in scuba, many of the classes are required prior to more advanced training, and in some cases, you are not allowed to dive without proof of advanced training. Therefore, when you take those standard courses, you get a card showing that you completed the course. There is nothing like that in golf because there is no need for it.

But here is the real difference. If you pay an instructor a fortune in hourly fees for golf lessons to make your game more enjoyable, people say you are doing the wise thing. In contrast, if you pay an instructor a relative pittance for scuba lessons that may save your life, people on ScubaBoard spit upon you as a damned card collector.