Training can you do too much too soon?

[Diver0001]

Do you think this is too much to soon

I"m not going to answer this question directly because I'm sure other people will do that. I'm going to answer the question abstractly.

There is a point at which the efficiency of training slows down. You can think of a learning curve as having 4 phases.

1) unaware, incompetent (you don't know anything)
2) aware, incompetent (you have gained knowledge but not skills)
3) aware, competent (you have knowledge and your skills are sorted)
4) unaware, competent (in terms of knowledge you have probably forgotten more than you know. Skills are instinctive)

The goal of a scuba course is to kick the student from stage 1 to the the start of stage 3.

If you take multiple courses back-to-back then your *knowledge* will reach stage 3 but your skills will lag behind that knowledge at stage 2 or 3.

Example. We hear about the "zero to hero" courses. Someone who is a DM in that context may have all of the knowledge of a DM but the *skills* of a much less experienced diver.

The simple reason for this is because skills take longer to perfect than knowledge. I can understand in less than a week HOW to build a rocket, but without the experience building simple rockets and then more and more complex ones then I'm not going to be able to build a serious rocket a week from now.

Dive instruction has this too. You sometimes hear people say that someone with a given certification "can't dive". That's not LITERALLY true.... everyone with a certification can dive, but those kinds of comments mean that they can't dive at the level of competence that most people associate with the level of certification. People working in the industry have all seen instructors with marginal buoyancy control , DM's who are nervous about taking off their mask and that kind of thing....

So when you ask the question "is it too much too soon" then you need to ask that question in the context of the steps in learning. If you want people to respect your skills as a diver and you want to be able to blindly rely on those skills then you need to have those skills at level 4. In a zero to hero course they will not get beyond level 3 and if your instructors aren't themselves very competent then you may only have your skills at level 2 when you're done.

My advice is to take some time between certifications and "just go diving" because this is what you need in order to build "instinctive" skills. There is literally no other way to do that.

That does slow down the progress but the quality of the result will improve. This is also a game of diminishing returns but between certifications I think anywhere between 20-50 dives is a good idea. Others will other opinions. Dive shops will hate me for saying this.

In my own case I did about 1000 dives between rescue and DM and maybe another 500 or so between DM and becoming an instructor (as a DM I became technically trained as well). I'm pretty extreme on the "skills" part of the scale and very demanding of myself. You don't need to do that to become a good instructor and your post isn't talking about this either, but the principle is the same even at the AOW level.....

Take my example as just that, an example. What I hope to get across here isn't a "cook book" but a way of helping you understand it.

R..

 

[tbone1004]

Agree with all except about most divers being trained to be "supervised" divers.

we'll have to agree to disagree on that. There is a difference in surviving and executing scuba dives independently, and a difference in intending on diving alone or with dive ops. I would argue heavily that most divers are trained with the intent of diving with dive operations as opposed to conducting dives on their own. Not a bad thing, just a thing

what @Diver0001 said is spot on, however I do have to disagree with that methodology applying to all courses. I think that taking AOW shortly after OW is fine because it's an experience course, not a skills course. I think that if you are going to take something like fundies, it is best to do it ASAP because practice makes permanent and the last thing you want is to have 200 dives of "doing it wrong" under your belt then have to break all of that habit.

 

[Diver0001]

we'll have to agree to disagree on that. There is a difference in surviving and executing scuba dives independently, and a difference in intending on diving alone or with dive ops. I would argue heavily that most divers are trained with the intent of diving with dive operations as opposed to conducting dives on their own. Not a bad thing, just a thing

what @Diver0001 said is spot on, however I do have to disagree with that methodology applying to all courses. I think that taking AOW shortly after OW is fine because it's an experience course, not a skills course. I think that if you are going to take something like fundies, it is best to do it ASAP because practice makes permanent and the last thing you want is to have 200 dives of "doing it wrong" under your belt then have to break all of that habit.

Our experience differs. If I look at the results at the END of the AOW course and how much added value the student gets from the course then I want to see them with about 20 dives of experience. If they have too much experience then the AOW course is a bit of a yawner (to be honest) but if they come in straight out of OW then I end up spending too much time on skills that are still marginal.

That 20 dives of experience takes all of that wasted time away in AOW and allows me to focus to a much greater extent on taking the next step as opposed to "sanding an polishing" the first step.

YMMV.

R..

 

[tbone1004]

@Diver0001 20 dives is a good number and I'll agree to that. I consider that "shortly after OW" though vs racking up 100+ dives when as you said, it becomes a bit of a yawner

 

[Diver0001]

agreed.

 

[Dive Sitnalta]

Melanie, great question... good convo starter. The squishy answer, it depends on you and the instructor you choose.

Find a quality instructor or shop.

I get itchy when I here the "Deal."..... "We can do your AOW (5 dives) and each of those dives count toward your specialty, Oh and by the way we can knock out your Nitro cert for just $99 extra during your AOW class with no extra dives, but wait there's more, if you sign up for a specialty, we can use your AOW dive as dive 1 of your Deep Diver cert (normally 4-5 dives)." 3 days, 8 dives, 3 certs! Yay!

I ask you, what is the priority in that sales pitch? It's a perfectly viable training option per the minimum standards, but it's only valuable if you are the type to take the training seriously and get lucky and end up with an instructor that genuinely cares about your safety/training and not pumping numbers through.

If you are not the type, or your instructor is a numbers pusher, congrats, you will have spent $1Ks of dollars for 3 pieces of plastic and crap training that places you in the accident waiting to happen category...

Kinda dismal outlook, but i can tell you first hand... met plenty of divers, with all kinds of patches and certs, and they are a hot mess. False confidence and bravado based on the poker hand of PIC cards.

My take... a diver should have some personal performance based milestones. Training and specialties are great. Working with instructors for more experience is smart. Rushing into courses before you've mastered some basics... I feel you're wasting your cash too early in your diving. You'll spend your time fighting with your gear, or trying to maintain buoyancy, rather than absorbing the specialty training's purpose.

Take the training if you choose, but know that you run high risk of diving beyond your personal abilities without foundations. C-Cards do not make you a better diver. Your ability to apply your training and do your own practice and research is what develops your skill and proficiency. Training certainly helps, but personal practice and performance measures are a better gauge.

My #1 Gauge for New Divers: Buoyancy, Balance, and Trim.
It's a pass/fail self check with immediate feedback. Control of your position in the water column, at any depth, without a reference or line, in good trim, is critical. Horizontal sky diver position in a relaxed state.

Test your self during every dive, practice the skill to develop mastery. Horizontal position, no sinking or floating away.

Here's an easy drill that will lend to other training later:

Assuming you are well within no-decompression limits and can perform a normal ascent:

Example: Time is up/or air is low, and it's time to ascend from a '60/18m depth and it's time to go. Rise at a rate of 30'/10m per minute (NOTE: this is half of PADIs max '60:min))(you can program your computer's ascent rate or use a watch and depth gauge). Come to a stop at 30'/10m depth and hold that position for :30 seconds to a minute. Regain your neutral bouncy there before moving again. Once neutral and chill (hopefully within the :30 second stop) then ascend to 20'/6m, hold for :30, get neutral and chill. Then to '10/3m, hold for :30, get neutral and chill. Note that this adds about 4-5 minutes to your ascent, so you'll need to thumb the dive a couple hundred pounds earlier to perform the drill.

some folks will argue that you can do this at your normal safety stop... but that's only one stop. can you nail stops at any depth, controlled, calm... that's the self check.

If you can nail your buoyancy, then you can safely deal with situations at any depth, you can follow emergency deco stops if needed without blowing the depths and running into DCI, you can manipulate surface marker buoys, or equipment without losing position, but most importantly, you are in complete control of your position, which builds confidence and competency.

 

[flyboy08]

You know what gets lost in threads like this...the responses are from well educated and highly trained divers, but diving for some is just simply enjoying the water without having a million things going through your head. As a rec diver, AOW and Nitrox are perfectly fine to attain and in my opinion, one should. If you never plan to become a commercial/cave or Tech diver as most of us, then these simple course keeps ones interest at peak....I'm peaked out at Rescue and believe ALL rec divers should stride to obtain this card.....then just go enjoy the water!

As a pilot though, I do appreciate re-current annual or semi-annual training!

 

[hhmoore]

The OP didn't indicate how many dives she has (possibly in another thread), other than what is shown in her profile. The following is from the perspective of one new diver.
With PADI, one can jump right from open water into the advanced class. For me, while I wanted to advance, I was very aware that I had no business pursuing AOW at that time. Frankly, I considered my skills marginal, at best; and knew I needed to get some dives under my belt... to increase both my comfort and abilities.
This summer, I jumped organizations to work with another instructor. Due to a combination of factors (a sinus/ear issue for me, and a 3 week dive trip + shop relocation for him), I have not completed my advanced "certification"; but I feel that I have made significant progress this summer, and am now at an appropriate level to possess that card.
I had planned on doing a late season rescue course; but will likely have to postpone that until spring, at this point (due to the unanticipated delay).

@Melanie White
Use your own discretion. If you feel that you are comfortable and competent enough to take on the AOW dives and deep diver certification, go for it.
Do you have to decide in advance? The reason I ask is that it might be worth seeing what you think of the instructor before committing. If the two of you are comfortable, and have a good rapport, with the instructor, why not? If you aren't, enjoy your vacation without worrying about additional certifications.

 

[Melanie White]

The OP didn't indicate how many dives she has (possibly in another thread), other than what is shown in her profile. The following is from the perspective of one new diver.
With PADI, one can jump right from open water into the advanced class. For me, while I wanted to advance, I was very aware that I had no business pursuing AOW at that time. Frankly, I considered my skills marginal, at best; and knew I needed to get some dives under my belt... to increase both my comfort and abilities.
This summer, I jumped organizations to work with another instructor. Due to a combination of factors (a sinus/ear issue for me, and a 3 week dive trip + shop relocation for him), I have not completed my advanced "certification"; but I feel that I have made significant progress this summer, and am now at an appropriate level to possess that card.
I had planned on doing a late season rescue course; but will likely have to postpone that until spring, at this point (due to the unanticipated delay).

@Melanie White
Use your own discretion. If you feel that you are comfortable and competent enough to take on the AOW dives and deep diver certification, go for it.
Do you have to decide in advance? The reason I ask is that it might be worth seeing what you think of the instructor before committing. If the two of you are comfortable, and have a good rapport, with the instructor, why not? If you aren't, enjoy your vacation without worrying about additional certifications.

We have already decided on the Advanced open and Nitrox
I'm leaving the Deep Diver up to seeing how it goes and going from there
I loved my instructor on open water hoping it's the same there

 

[Snoweman]

To me, a lot of these certifications are nothing more than a revenue generator for the dive shops and the agencies. When you do your AOW, you should be certified to 120' depth. This only means that a USA dive op isn't liable if you have an accident that is by your doing.

I would get the AOW and Nitrox, and then think about Rescue Diver. RD is physically challenging, so I would do it sooner than later (I wish I had done mine before I turned 50). If you want to proceed from there (DM, Instructor), that's up to you. Rescue is about as far as I am going to go.

I'm getting my Nitrox certification in CZM this November. P3 is good enough to throw in two free nitrox tanks as part of the certification. I suspect you're getting the same deal.