Too much current and a negligent dive master??

[Cudabait]

I agree with Uncle Pug on this one. Also as stated, "the facts" are incomplete and confusing. If the mooring line was missed, then logic would indicate they were already by the bow of the boat??

I think the granny line was missed and no extended safety line had been deployed. It would seem the DM's both acted well. Just calculate the current in feet per second. I think the DM did darn good towing a line and still overcoming the drifting diver in a distance of 200 feet. Pretty darn good.

DM's - 1 Diver - 0

Regards,

 

[pbr]

I still find it odd that Amy's would have you go off the bow, jumping for the mooring ball & down line. But I wasn't there. If they had the other lines out, which sounds appropriate, why not direct divers to them - especially the newer ones.

It does seem that some operators ae willing to take anyone to the Grove. In talking with a potentional buddy for that dive, I wanted to be sure he either had AOW or 50+ ocean dives, plus a willingness to take leadership from someone who'd done the dive before. Kelly's told me that they have the same requirements for the Grove, but Amy's will take an OW...?


I believe that current is the Gulf Steam that runs all the time, and wanders in at times. Just stay away from Keys Wrecks if you can't handle currents.



Sure - hire one each and hold hands.



Get on the drift line, fins off, straps around wrist, don't appraoch until clear, BC emtpy in case the boat jumps on you, climb like hell and clear the way... :11:

Dandy, like I've said at least twice, I can't say if going off the bow is "normal" or not. All I can say is that is how the profile was presented to all of us that day. Indeed, we went off the bow the day before as well.

As for OW divers, I will say that they had to be convinced that I could "make" the dive. But then again, it wasnt me that had a problem that day.

Lastly, if I wanted to hold hands with someone I'd have chosen my wife. The fact that we hired a DM had more to do with navigation, site conditions etc. As I've stated in earlier posts, we didn't look to him to assure our safety; we can figure that out.

Maybe it's me, but I can't help but sense a little superiority in your comments. As an adult, USMC vet, parent and professional, I can assure you that I take safety and responsibility very seriously. If you have a point to make, fine; just don’t patronize me.

I apologize if I have misinterpreted your comments and I fully appreciate that I have limitations. But, so do you.

All the best.

Paul

 

[fldivenut]

Very good thread.

The protocol of the DM's is IMHO correct, this is what would have happened on any boat here in South Florida, with ok DMs. I would have liked to see that the onboard DM would have been fast enough to through her a line instead of having to swim the line to her but that is only details.

To enter from the bow seem odd but they could have had a reason for it, like it would be a hard pull your self on the line from the stern. But then as pointed out the dive maybe should been aborted already then. But then I have seen some pretty odd things from some Captains in the Keys, pure speculation form my side but my guess is that there are newbie Captains working in the Keys that doesn't have it yet or try to do it the way they used to elsewhere. Much less of that further North up the coast, like in Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach. Where it is almost the rule that the Captain is the owner.

About experince, dive some other wrecks here in South Forida before you go on the SG. She is both deep and big, chose a not so deep and not so big wreck with likelyhood of good (i.e. strong) currents. Pretty much all wrecks outside the third reef line from the Keys to well above Jupiter has the possibility of currents (this includes Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton, and West Palm Beach).

And watch your dive profile (saw toothing) when diving the SG, I know of two divers that bent there, one of which will probably never dive again. Also with such a big ship and challanges, watch your air consumption. I know of a diver buddy team that would have drowned there hadn't it been for an experinced diver diving solo coming by and get one of the divers (with tank sucked dry) up on his octo.

One last observation: Quite a few non-local people that seem to have great experince in South Florida local dive practices. Don't know what to make of that though.

--A

 

[pbr]

Very good thread.

The protocol of the DM's is IMHO correct, this is what would have happened on any boat here in South Florida, with ok DMs. I would have liked to see that the onboard DM would have been fast enough to through her a line instead of having to swim the line to her but that is only details.

To enter from the bow seem odd but they could have had a reason for it, like it would be a hard pull your self on the line from the stern. But then as pointed out the dive maybe should been aborted already then. But then I have seen some pretty odd things from some Captains in the Keys, pure speculation form my side but my guess is that there are newbie Captains working in the Keys that doesn't have it yet or try to do it the way they used to elsewhere. Much less of that further North up the coast, like in Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach. Where it is almost the rule that the Captain is the owner.

About experince, dive some other wrecks here in South Forida before you go on the SG. She is both deep and big, chose a not so deep and not so big wreck with likelyhood of good (i.e. strong) currents. Pretty much all wrecks outside the third reef line from the Keys to well above Jupiter has the possibility of currents (this includes Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton, and West Palm Beach).

And watch your dive profile (saw toothing) when diving the SG, I know of two divers that bent there, one of which will probably never dive again. Also with such a big ship and challanges, watch your air consumption. I know of a diver buddy team that would have drowned there hadn't it been for an experinced diver diving solo coming by and get one of the divers (with tank sucked dry) up on his octo.

One last observation: Quite a few non-local people that seem to have great experince in South Florida local dive practices. Don't know what to make of that though.

--A

All good thoughts fldivenut. It's interesting to me that "going off the bow" has generated so many comments in this thread. Being a relatively new diver, it never occurred to me that this was not a good idea. Having done it several times now, I can plainly see why the stern is a better option. That said, and to be fair to the captain, I think they wanted us off the bow because it would be easier to grab the mooring line (with which to haul ourselves down to the SG) given the strong currents.

It's also obvious to me that the dive should have been aborted once the DM knew that there was a "ripping" current. That he aborted after reaching the wreck is commendable rather than try and "force" the dive. As I think I indicated earlier, I was totally fine with with his decision to abort.

Lastly, before trying the SG again, I think I will do two things;

1) Obtain my AOW.
2) get a few more dives under my belt.

Thanks for all the comments guys and gals

 

[jagfish]

One last observation: Quite a few non-local people that seem to have great experince in South Florida local dive practices. Don't know what to make of that though.--A

?????????


JAG

 

[HarleyDiver]

All good thoughts fldivenut. It's interesting to me that "going off the bow" has generated so many comments in this thread. Being a relatively new diver, it never occurred to me that this was not a good idea. Having done it several times now, I can plainly see why the stern is a better option. That said, and to be fair to the captain, I think they wanted us off the bow because it would be easier to grab the mooring line (with which to haul ourselves down to the SG) given the strong currents.

Actually going off the bow of a Cat is very common. (Horizen divers does it for all "current" dives.
The bowline goes from both pontoons to the morring line.
If you do it right, it saves a lot of work. If you miss the line there are usually current lines to catch. If you stand near the side you can step in with one hand already over the bowline.However some people go from the middle, miss & wind up between the pontoons & come out between the outboards(not good).

Personally I prefer live drops up-current of the ball, but that isn't practical on large cattle-boats.

My vote, the DM's did their job, tip them well.

 

[DandyDon]

Maybe it's me, but I can't help but sense a little superiority in your comments. As an adult, USMC vet, parent and professional, I can assure you that I take safety and responsibility very seriously. If you have a point to make, fine; just don’t patronize me.

Yeah, sometimes I don't watch how I say things well enough, and I will apologize if I have been rude. I like to be direct, yes, but not rude.

And I don't really mean to project a superiority trip, either. I do have a few more cards, a few more dives, etc. but I am niether qualified nor authroized to act that way, either.

Good luck on your continued training and dives!

don, Fellow Marine, 1967-73

 

[pbr]

Yeah, sometimes I don't watch how I say things well enough, and I will apologize if I have been rude. I like to be direct, yes, but not rude.

And I don't really mean to project a superiority trip, either. I do have a few more cards, a few more dives, etc. but I am niether qualified nor authroized to act that way, either.

Good luck on your continued training and dives!

don, Fellow Marine, 1967-73

Don, thanks for your comments and no need to aplogize; I guess I was out of sorts when I wrote that post and "saw" something in your post that wasn't there.

Anyway, stay well and I look forward to seeing you in this and other discussions.

Semper Fi, my friend.

 

[justleesa]

I agree with Uncle Pug. If the current was that bad, a tag line should have been out there.

 

[fldivenut]

It's interesting to me that "going off the bow" has generated so many comments in this thread. Being a relatively new diver, it never occurred to me that this was not a good idea.

Usually the problem with the bow is that it is not usually setup to enter from, like walk with your equipment to the bow on a narrow walkways etc. On some boats this is not the case such as on a cat (commented on already).
Secondly is that if tied-off and there are waves the bow rocks up and down much more than the stern, so you can get a really high level entry if you don't watch your self.
Third, if you miss the line you can get in close unwanted (like hurting) contact with the boat.
There are probably more issues as well...

One common way of solving this problem here in South Florida is that during entry the boat is tied-off at the stern. It gives easy entry and close access to the down line. The problem with the boat contact remains but is minimized by that you are almost sure to catch the line since you can sit on the ramp and slide in holding the line if you think you'll have a problem. When all divers are safely down the Captain turn the boat around and tie it off from the bow (in good conditions the boat remains tied-off in the stern). Ties a current line from the stern (and maybe a tag line). When you come up you just float with the current to the current line, grab it, pull your self to the boat and climb aboard. Benefits with this are the boat is much more secure and comfortable for the crew during the dive, and when exit the current will not push you under the platform. (Entry from the bow and midship exit from a cat is the same as above.)
And if the boat is not safe while tied-off at the stern for the entry the dive is probably not safe either. This is especially true for strong currents.

IMO this is the way to do a tie-off entry and exit. All other ways I've seen it done is an accident waiting to happen.

The drift drop and exit is great but actually requires more experince from the divers than the tie-off, at least less experinced divers think it is more difficult, real or imagined I don't know but it is their preception that counts because that is what put stress in their system.

--A