Too much current and a negligent dive master??

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I'm not sure it was his fault but am not sure what the "proper" procedure is. Any comments?

Maybe I am a wimp..but I run a dive boat here in the Keys & dive wrecks that are advanced and beyond. Knowing what I knew about last weekend the "proper procedure" would have been to scrub the dive before it began.

When I tie up to a wreck & see a current that can cause problems I take the divers to the reef where the current is not as bad, or non existent.

The other side of the coin is "A man (or woman) has got to know his limitations." Hiring a DM does not guarantee your safety. Hiring a DM to ensure your safety is unsafe.

 

[pbr]

PBR, not wishing to speak for Reefraff, there are many sides to this story, its not just the DM who had a responsibility or things which they needed to attend to, a critique of the general dive (from what few details you provided - unless you have more?) would suggest that it wasnt just the DM who was lacking - in fact they had a back-up in case this thing happened. Even though one of your buddy team had got swept away you carried on with the dive and also although not saying the AOW stands for anything much more than basic OW, do you have much experience? Although i dont have much diving experience, common sense says that if your buddy gets washed away you wait for them on the boat (or do something about them being washed away if you can). I can see hiring a DM as you hadnt been on the wreck before or at least listening intently to the pre-dive briefing (i am sure you did, but that should hold nuggets of useful info for the dive), but had you done much other diving around that area in strong currents?

Although some posts come across kind of strong and lecture-like, most people are trying to be helpful, but pointing out weaknesses (hopefully in a constructive way) where they see them in the hope that you can analyse your own dive and learn from it.

I hope you reread the post and try to take the positives out of it rather than seeing it as an attack.

I didn't see it as an attack at all. And, I freely admit that we (or I) could have done things differently although, I'm not sure going after Lynn is one of them.

To answer your question, I have roughly 30 dives total but have been on wrecks and strong currents. To be frank, I didn't have that much trouble in the water but I certainly realized that we should have ended the dive.

As for details, what else would you like to know? The intent of my post was to learn something and, I have.

 

[simbrooks]

I didn't see it as an attack at all. And, I freely admit that we (or I) could have done things differently although, I'm not sure going after Lynn is one of them.

To answer your question, I have roughly 30 dives total but have been on wrecks and strong currents. To be frank, I didn't have that much trouble in the water but I certainly realized that we should have ended the dive.

As for details, what else would you like to know? The intent of my post was to learn something and, I have.

Glad you took positives and lessons for life (not to infringe the Rodale's articles trademark) from what you did, what you saw and what others have suggested to you.

Some of those extra details you have provided, how much experience you have, how much training and the strange practice of not having a granny line off the mooring buoy - just the line buy itself off the bow would be harder to catch - not impossible, but harder for sure.

There is also another thread on another guy's dive on SG last weekend in the FL conch divers forum see this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/t55259.html. I stated there and i will here that i wouldnt consider SG until i had done more wreck dives, more hard current dives and more deep dives - but that is my choice - i am thinking 100-150 total dives and even then only with pretty reasonable sea state - current is just one of those things you cant second guess til you get there. I would highly imagine your 30 dives (if all up in NJ) are worth far more than the 40 i have in FL's springs, lakes, shores, reefs and wrecks - although i know which are nearer to the conditions you faced but that is beside the point.

Still glad you, i and all other newbie divers are learning each dive and from more experienced divers on here.

 

[SDAnderson]

Well, it's been a while since I have been lectured but I'm willing to let it pass.

Thanks for your indulgence.

First, she did miss the mooring line. We all went off the bow and were instructed to grab the mooring line.

Interesting. Why? Was a granny line deployed prior to the incident? How about a drag line? (Rhetorical questions - you don't need to answer them.)

Second, we recognized our limitations which is why we took a DM in the first place and no, we didn't expect him to be our personal assistant or teacher, simply to guide us on the wreck. Lastly, with respect to this point, I was the only open water diver the other two are AOW.

Like I said, hiring a DM wasn't a bad idea but that's no substitute for training and experience. You recognized your limitations but you went ahead with the dive, anyway. Less than an optimal approach. :11:

Third, I never considered going after her because the on-board DM "had" her (so to speak).

A good call on your part.

Lastly, we were briefed by the DM with respect to the dive profile but no one was aware how strong the current actually was until we were in the water as I stated earlier. Further, everyone in a position to know thought the current would abate on the wreck but it didn't. We went down the mooring line to about 50 feet, stood on the hull for a couple of minutes and then decided to abort.

How is it that no one was aware of how strong the current was? Top currents are usually very apparent - all it takes is a quick look at the bouys, the action of the drag line and a quick radio call to the other boats. Why did anyone think that the bottom currents would abate? (More rhetorical questions.)

I apologize for quoting rescue and I realize that Lynn was in a for real rescue situation. That said, she kept her head and simply waited for the on board DM and the line.

A good call on her part.

The point of the post was to talk about DM protocol. If you need to feel important than please, lecture away.

Don't confuse criticism with a personal attack - it gets in the way of learning. I wasn't intending to lecture but to point out some mistakes that you might learn from. Maybe it helps to think of it as a gentle chiding from a far more experienced diver who is willing to share some of the benefits of his experience. If you can't do that, ignore me and move on, I'll be okay. :ignore:

Perhaps I'm reading more into this than I should, but there's a stink of pin the blame on the DM to your post that probably isn't as self-serving as you would want. They made some mistakes but one of the things that they appear to have done correctly was the rescue.

Thus, having answered your specific question and given you a bunch of free bonus answers, I'm out of here. :bang:

 

[KadenaJim]

As a working DiveMaster, here's my take: I've had this situation happen several times on my boats to the Keramas. 1: If the current is anything more than 2-3 knots, I always put a line out, then the diver can pull themselves to the decent point. 2: if the first diver goes in and floats away NO ONE else goes in the water till we retrieve the diver. If divers are already down and I get a drifter, the second DiveMaster goes for the floater, the primary DiveMaster has responsibility for the folks already down. 3: ocassional "pissed off" divers are a fact of life when you have groups, whether it's euipment malfunction, sea conditions, or the DiveMaster calling the dive because the site isn't suitable for the experience level of everyone on board. If the diver is pissed, they're alive to dive another day.

 

[DandyDon]

First, she did miss the mooring line. We all went off the bow and were instructed to grab the mooring line.

Huh? I've done various Keys wrecks in hard currents, and we've always

• gone off of the stern;
• grabbed the current line - or else*;
• pulled forward along the granny line to the mooring line;
• then gone down.

It seems odd that the extra lines were not laid, and that they were told to go off of the bow, as that does sound too tricky. Some operators do it that way...?

*Or else: I was always warned to not miss, 'cause if I did - I'd have to float until the boat could move to chase me, after the others finished their dives.

I certainly agree that the DM in the water was right to not turn lose to go after her, as you'd then just have two drifting divers to rescue.

 

[scbababe]

Is a "ripping current" a common condition on the Spiegel Grove? but if that's a common condition, it will be moved down farther until I have more experience.

I would second that thought. I've been diving for 2 years and have gone out with hubby/buddy along with other experienced divers to this sight (SG) and I have sat it out... I've seen good experienced divers have trouble there. The currents are rough. The Capt. we use to go there has many years of experience in the Keys. His suggestion to me was, that the best time to do the SG is usually July to mid Sept. and always consider the weather conditions. (It's key....)

 

[pbr]

I would second that thought. I've been diving for 2 years and have gone out with hubby/buddy along with other experienced divers to this sight (SG) and I have sat it out... I've seen good experienced divers have trouble there. The currents are rough. The Capt. we use to go there has many years of experience in the Keys. His suggestion to me was, that the best time to do the SG is usually July to mid Sept. and always consider the weather conditions. (It's key....)

Okay, a couple of things; the boat did put out lines prior to anyone getting in the water. When Lynn went in, she missed the mooring line and could not reach any of the other lines.

Whether going off the bow is "normal" or not, I can't say. The fact remains that is what we did; if you question this procedure, I suggest the answer will come from Amoray Divers directly.

I'm not a great typist or writer so, if I inferred fault lay with the divemaster let me correct that. Indeed, I think the safety protocols worked very well that day. Since I'm not an accomplished diver I merely sought some insight into proper protocol, and, hopefully, to learn from this experience.

Thanks to all those who responded, I appreciate your input.

 

[scbababe]

I'm not a great typist or writer so, if I inferred fault lay with the divemaster let me correct that. Indeed, I think the safety protocols worked very well that day. Since I'm not an accomplished diver I merely sought some insight into proper protocol, and, hopefully, to learn from this experience. Thanks to all those who responded, I appreciate your input.

pbr, I really thank you for sharing your experience with us, we all could stand to learn from this. I know someone who will be diving the (SG ) next week and I have asked her to read your thread I'm sure she too will appreciate it. Thanks again....

 

[pbr]

Thanks for your indulgence.


Interesting. Why? Was a granny line deployed prior to the incident? How about a drag line? (Rhetorical questions - you don't need to answer them.)


Like I said, hiring a DM wasn't a bad idea but that's no substitute for training and experience. You recognized your limitations but you went ahead with the dive, anyway. Less than an optimal approach. :11:


A good call on your part.


How is it that no one was aware of how strong the current was? Top currents are usually very apparent - all it takes is a quick look at the bouys, the action of the drag line and a quick radio call to the other boats. Why did anyone think that the bottom currents would abate? (More rhetorical questions.)


A good call on her part.


Don't confuse criticism with a personal attack - it gets in the way of learning. I wasn't intending to lecture but to point out some mistakes that you might learn from. Maybe it helps to think of it as a gentle chiding from a far more experienced diver who is willing to share some of the benefits of his experience. If you can't do that, ignore me and move on, I'll be okay. :ignore:

Perhaps I'm reading more into this than I should, but there's a stink of pin the blame on the DM to your post that probably isn't as self-serving as you would want. They made some mistakes but one of the things that they appear to have done correctly was the rescue.

Thus, having answered your specific question and given you a bunch of free bonus answers, I'm out of here. :bang:

Hey, thanks Reefraff for deigning to mingle with the unworthy. I really appreciate your time. I’ll take your advice under consideration as I really do think you have something to offer.

One piece of advice for you; try getting over yourself long enough to realize that we are all adults here and arrogant, self absorbed, pontificating know it all’s tend to be dismissed.

Lastly, many thanks for the "bonus answers" Lord knows what I would do without them.