To those considering an OW class...

[Thalassamania]

Maybe that's not what OW meant a few years ago, but I'm not ready to say it's inherently unsafe or fundamentally flawed just yet.

I was just wondering when this change came about. Frankly I never heard it till I started on the board here, but then I was fairly isolated from the average LDS kind of program.

 

[Tonio Anastasi]

I’m curious. When did the meaning of an Open Water Card change from something along the lines of, “qualified to dive in conditions and situations similar to those of your training program with a similarly qualified buddy, in any case no deeper than 'x' feet.” … to something like
How can anyone go about with a strait face and say that the program has not been gutted and dumbed down yet accept (and I don't know Tonio's individual feelings on the subject) this kind of change in definition?

It is what I do beleive.

There is no way that I will ever feel that an OWD has the required knowledge or experience to just go out and dive unescorted at the end of a course.

Especially when you consider the many owds certify go back home and then dive back when on holiday.

Most trainees do not get hands on experience involved in the logistic of running a dive and only have the book knowledge of these.

Theire skills, buoyancy, finning, buddy practices, navigation, have been tried on a generic level this is even more so when dealing with large classes.

I seriously beleive that an owd coming out of a course needs to do a few experience dives under his belt with a DM OWSI AOWSI, experienced diver, to allow him to get to term with his BASIC skills before he starts to add other complications.

Once he is in control of his skill and has therefore also extended his knowledge, then he can start thinking of going to dive with another similarly qualified and experienced diver.

There is this fixation about comfort level.

I can understand that. And basically this is measured on the fact that yes I was happy no I did not have any problems.

But comfort level is a very subjective thing and is only valid till that comfortable diver continues to push the envelope by doing more challanging things that he is not trained to do.

Do not get me wrong. I am not knocking the course, I'm simply aware of its limitations.

I have known of OWD or AOWD with less then a 100 dives even less then 50 dives that have dived to depths of over 30M to max of 42M and 58M

My own personal beleife is that they should not be going to those depths without having gone through the Rescue course. Not because I want them to spend more money but, quite simply, because THAT course teaches and make divers aware of the limitations and potential dangers of diving. It teaches how to avoid and anticipate problems, and how to deal with these when they meet them.

By the same token I have witheld certifications and given either referrals or a lower certification if they still were not showing reasonable mastery of their skills.

Not perfect Dm demonstration level, just basic stressless mastery.

I have also advised trainees to discontiue courses, if they are really stressed out to the verge of tears from fright or stress.

These have not happened often in fat over the years maybe a dozen times.

The OWD and the AOWD are not holy grails to be held high to ward off evil.

They are simply tools, good tools, and a proud achievement for trainees , but initially they need to be used conservativly, to allow divers to go out diving.

It is my responsibility as their instructor, regardless of how good they may have been, to advise them of their limitations as newly qualified divers.

And you know what. After having paid good money for the course and I stand there and tell them that NOW is when there training actually starts, so find sombody to hold there hands, they actually smile and thank me for the advise.

Similarly as you are aware. I like yourself went on an IDC. I was taught the basic of teaching, there. I only started to learn and cope once I started to teach. I did not start with a class of 4 ,5 ,6 or 10.
My boss alowed me to act as an assitant for a few courses. Just ot get the feel of myself in the new role and watch and listen to more experienced instructors. Then I started with one trainee.

After that I slowly built up to 6 which I rearely do keeping to a max of 4 to a class. Both of us learned more if not most about diving instruction AFTER the IDC>

 

[Tonio Anastasi]

Tonio's post was malformatted in my browser, but I think his language implies that he's putting his own spin on how beginners should approach their newly-acquired OW status. I obviously haven't been around long enough toknow how standards/procedures have changed over the last 5/10/50 years, but a conservative "remember that you're still a beginner at this sport, and it doesn't hurt to dive with a DM the first few times" isn't in any case wholly inconsistent with the OW "dive with buddy at level of experience not to exceed xx ft" rule.

I think it would have been great to come out of my OW class fully versed and comfortable with all aspects of basic scuba, but from reading this thread, an extremely rigorous program spanning more than a few weeks and requiring a larger number of dives wouldn't have been allowed in my schedule at all, and it's very likely I would never have even considered trying it. Though OW cert'd, I know that I still have a lot to learn, and plan on taking things slowly and safely, and building experience as I go. Maybe that's not what OW meant a few years ago, but I'm not ready to say it's inherently unsafe or fundamentally flawed just yet.

Yes thank you that's about it and more.

 

[Thalassamania]

It is what I do beleive.

There is no way that I will ever feel that an OWD has the required knowledge or experience to just go out and dive unescorted at the end of a course.

But yet this used to be the case, the diver HAD the knowledge and experience, what happened?

Especially when you consider the many owds certify go back home and then dive back when on holiday.

Most trainees do not get hands on experience involved in the logistic of running a dive and only have the book knowledge of these.

Theire skills, buoyancy, finning, buddy practices, navigation, have been tried on a generic level this is even more so when dealing with large classes.

So you’re saying that divers who are trained today lack the basic required skills, no buoyancy control? Poor finning? Poor buddy practices? No navigation skills?

I seriously beleive that an owd coming out of a course needs to do a few experience dives under his belt with a DM OWSI AOWSI, experienced diver, to allow him to get to term with his BASIC skills before he starts to add other complications.

I’m not disagreeing, I’m just wondering when this started and why it came to be. It was not always this way,

… Do not get me wrong. I am not knocking the course, I'm simply aware of its limitations.

When did these limitations begin? How did they begin?

I have known of OWD or AOWD with less then a 100 dives even less then 50 dives that have dived to depths of over 30M to max of 42M and 58M

I can see a fully qualified diver at 30M with a minimum of 48 dives, to 42M with a minimum of 60 dives and to 58M with a minimum of 84 dives. All of these dives would be supervised training dives, of course.

My own personal beleife is that they should not be going to those depths without having gone through the Rescue course. Not because I want them to spend more money but, quite simply, because THAT course teaches and make divers aware of the limitations and potential dangers of diving. It teaches how to avoid and anticipate problems, and how to deal with these when they meet them.

Should all this not happen in the entry level course, as it used to?

By the same token I have witheld certifications and given either referrals or a lower certification if they still were not showing reasonable mastery of their skills.

Not perfect Dm demonstration level, just basic stressless mastery.

I’m confused, perhaps it’s a language thing, to me “mastery” and DM demonstration level (I don’t know what DM’s demonstrate, but OK) are one and the same.

 

[Tigerman]

AOWD includes deep diving specialty, both with theory and practice. By having passed OWD and AOWD you should have gained the knowledge of going to 30M safely. Dive planning is also taught. If with PADI, you sign papers saying you have received the training and basically say that "yes, I received the training and im happy with it and I should know and dive within my limitations".
When taking OWD, sure you might not know what you should be looking for from the instructor, but if you give a damn, you should have a pretty good idea of what the requirements of the class was or else you didnt read the book or pay attention. If you havent been training and tested in all of them, you shouldnt sign the paper to begin with.
Do you sign contracts without knowing what it says?

If you have actually been taught the requirements for OWD and AOWD and have signed out for it, there is no reason why you shouldnt be allowed to dive to dive to 30M, which IS within your training. If you chose not to obey the precautions you have been taught however, that is your individual choice..
Yes, I would feel comfortable with planning and performing a dive with any one of the people I took my OW cert with (That passed.. Yes, there was some that failed), just as Id dive to 30M with any one I took my AOW with.

Would I do a deep dive without the training between OW and AOW?
I did actually do a couple, but with an instructor as my buddy. Infact, I didnt do any dives between OW and AOW without an instructor or DM in the water, but that was just because they happened to be the people who was available to go diving those days.. Ironically I had my first incident on my AOWD deep/wreck dive (its in the accidents and incidents section and it was my buddy that had a problem). It worked out quite ok in the end as a lesson learned and nothing more.

 

[cavernicola]

My opinion:
The OW course in every agency is an entry level course, it is our responsability as instructors to evaluate students correctly. Although PADI relies a lot on PADI materials, we instructors still have the last decision. I have also seem a lot of lazyness in diving courses worldwide, we should be more cautios in this, regarding our courses and the instructors next door , diving is a wonderful sport that changes your blood physicochemical properties temporarily
(positive criticism is positive, come on we are all diving the same ocean teaching the same sport, we should be responsible and mature about taking advice)
See Jah

 

[loosebits]

Hi, Im currently in a OW class through my university, It runs 8 weeks with about 20 hours of pool time, and all for only 160 $
Certification dives will be at devils den florida for another 160, Good deal?

I assume that is $160 above tuition. But that's what I paid when I did OW through my university.

 

[3-Ring Octopus]

Nostalgia is a dangerous thing. Sometimes the "good old days" weren't always THAT good.

We're all pining for the days when students were taught everything they needed to go out and adventure in open water day 1 after finishing an OW course. And while that may be well and good...are we really turning out "bad" divers now....(ones who aren't capable of diving OW alone right out of the chute, so to speak)? Is the advice to seek further training and make a few dives with experienced divers that far off from what new divers should be doing?

I think that if we look at the number of SCUBA-related accidents 30 years ago and compare them today, we'll find that a smaller percentage of divers are injured now than back then. Is part of that based on the reliability of the technology? Probably (although not if you listen to the OG divers on here who laud the sturdiness of their "golden era" regs/backplates/etc..)...but part of it is also in instilling a bit of healthy fear in new OW divers.

Were newly certed OW divers 20 years ago REALLY more safe/competent/qualified...or is that just nostalgia on the part of some of the senior members of our community?

Cheers,
Austin

 

[Tonio Anastasi]

But yet this used to be the case, the diver HAD the knowledge and experience, what happened?


So you’re saying that divers who are trained today lack the basic required skills, no buoyancy control? Poor finning? Poor buddy practices? No navigation skills?


I’m not disagreeing, I’m just wondering when this started and why it came to be. It was not always this way,

When did these limitations begin? How did they begin?
.[/quote

I think that what has happened is that we, instructors used to be thought to teach a skill till it became second nature or as close to that as possible.

We the instructors have changed, and the fact that I have often gotten into this type of discussion with many new and old instructors showing all the preoccupations displayed on this forum shows that something has got to give.

I am not a beleiver that we should go back to the good old days of 500m swims, and hard snorkling modules. That the only good course is a hard course.

Neither am I a beliver that a course should take weeks or months. Simply because it is an unjust measure. If it takes a trainee to qualify two months going to the LDS on a twice a week 3 hours sessions, it does not mean that the diver learning in a 4 day course is less prepared, because BOTH are doing the same time in the water.

Proof of the pudding is that there are thousands of divers out there diving safely having started with a 4 day course.

As there are thousands of instructors teaching, that also started on the same 4 days course.

What is wrong is not so much the courses but the interpretation of the standards by instructors.

I had a guest come to me immediately after finishing the OWD.
I started the AOWD with him with a free sessions so that we could access each other.

He had very bad, almost non existant finning and buoyancy skills.

Why?

Because his instructor, got him to do the owd skills in one session with no exploratory swim opportunity.

OWD2 descent skills, surface
OWD2. descent skills surface
OWD3 descent skills surface.

Another ,when each student that came through for the OWD course, standards are stertched to the limits when instructors takes x number of trainees in the pool for confined training, to do as many moduels as he can with the air supply he has.

So trainees get in the water, kneel, skills skills skills, out.
change cylinder and repeat.

Tell me. What have those trainees learned?

How can these divers be prepared to go out and explore safely.

I will irreterate, and please keep this in mind.

I think that the courses are valid. However, they need to be taken with a health warning, and much more responsibility by some instructors.

What I am saying is that the skills ARE there but the knowledge of those skills are not.

When instructors simply follow standards and not commnon sence, a diver is less prepeared. i.e. If i demonstrat a skill to a charge, I ask him to do it. He does it and I leave it at that. I have not allowed him to learn to understand, to assimilate the skill.

I can help him, and do, by asking him to repeat the skill a second and a third and a forth time. This each time the skill is required in a given module. In the water I am constantly reminding them to compensate their buoyancy and check their air.

I do not simply ask them for their air pressure, I want to be seen checking my air, so I will pointedly look at them and look at my gauge. I will exagerate checking my air, my depth, my time.

If I have a class of open water or AOWDs trainees. I will get to the divesite. Tell them to go off for 10mins, and find entry and exit points, and come up with a dive plan.

When they are navigating the fact that they manged to go in a straight line and back or dive a perfect square, is not successful for me, IF in the process, they lost their diving buddy or that they neglect buoyancy or move too fast.

With navigation there is the opportunity to re enforce basic skills as well as buddy diving skills.

I DO give them the opportunity to be in the water as a buddy pair, and dive together with me having a hands off approach, from the back.

So at least by the end of the course, they have actually practiced and understand the problems or difficulties diving, and their limitations because they have:

1) planned and discussed dives and practiced breifeings
2)got in the water and led their dive buddy during the dive, putting into practice navigation and buddy diving techniques

In the AOWD I do exactly the same thing but I am also introducing planning air requirements and air/profile management.

Its like this.

If a trainee comes back to me with a plan for a 25M dive,(depth limit set my me), and that they want to stay there 15mins.
I want them to tell me IF they have enough air for a that dive.
I want them to tell me WHERE they can find 25M in the area.
I want them to tell me the hazards in the location.

When they cannot tell me hazards and shortest route to the target depth. they have learned the value of ask for local diving knowledge

If they are planning a multi level dive, I think it is useless if they can come up with NDLs, depths and times using the Wheel, IF they do not relate this to the air that they have available.

How can I accept their "We plan to stay at 25M for 10mins 18M for 15mins 12M for 20mins"....IF they do not know if they have the air for that dive.

At a certain point, I do not debreife, but ask them to tell me, to evaluate what they have done, or how well they have done. Only then do I add my pinch of salt, bringing all together.

Where depths are concerned I am not a beleiver that once an OWD Always an OWD and therefore are committed to life of dives to 18M.

Like you I see nothing wrong with a gradual, build up of depth under the guidance of sombody that actually knows what he is talking about.

However that does not really happpen does it?

I have done MANY dives to 50M and 60M and never take them lightly, nor do my buddies. I do not take them lightly BECAUSE I am aware of the implications of those depths. Too many entry level divers do these dives with the same mentality of going to the Mall or a walk in the Park.

The thing I find worrisome is that BECAUSE they felt COMFORTABLE, they would do it again.

On the courses I want to direct the 3 main concerns that statistically cause insidents and fatalities.

Diving beyond the level of their experience.
Running out of air
Buddy seperation

So when I have done all this with my trainees and at the end of the course I tell them that they can now go out and start learning, they know exactly what I mean and they will start by learning to walk before running.

 

[Thalassamania]

Nostalgia is a dangerous thing. Sometimes the "good old days" weren't always THAT good.

We're all pining for the days when students were taught everything they needed to go out and adventure in open water day 1 after finishing an OW course. And while that may be well and good...are we really turning out "bad" divers now....(ones who aren't capable of diving OW alone right out of the chute, so to speak)? Is the advice to seek further training and make a few dives with experienced divers that far off from what new divers should be doing?

The advise to seek mentoring is good and always has been good … that’s not the issue. From what I observe, I’d say that the average skill level of divers (at least that I’ve observed in the Keys) has plummeted. There may be alternate explanations for this and I am open to listen to them.

I think that if we look at the number of SCUBA-related accidents 30 years ago and compare them today, we'll find that a smaller percentage of divers are injured now than back then.

I don’t know that that is true, there is not hard data to support that claim (the old numerator/denominator problem for one thing).

Is part of that based on the reliability of the technology? Probably (although not if you listen to the OG divers on here who laud the sturdiness of their "golden era" regs/backplates/etc..)...

Some things, like auxiliary regulators, dive compters and modern BCs have clearly made it easier for marginal beginning divers to survive (not that the gear’s BETTER, only that it can make it easier for beginners).

Were newly certed OW divers 20 years ago REALLY more safe/competent/qualified...or is that just nostalgia on the part of some of the senior members of our community?

Yes, they really were (and are), on average they received about twice the instruction that they do today. You see it’s not nostalgia, a fair number of us are still running basically the same programs, modified only to adapt to the changes in equipment. We, if anything, are training better divers today than we did.