To Critique or not to Critique

[TerryInFlorida]

I should have been more specific in what I meant.

Example 2: The recent accident in Boynton, which is really the reason (I think) that Narcosis started this thread in the first place.

There were a few - who were criticizing the person who discovered the bodies. This criticizm included the branding of said discoverer as "not following his DM protocol, by speaking to the press, etc" - is that really necessary? To pick on someone who had the horrible task of body recovery, not becuase of his duty as a DM, but rather as a skilled diver who saw clues that perhaps the victims were present, and went to look. In this case, I believe it made no difference if he was a DM, Rescue Diver, or just a regular guy with an OW cert who happened to find these victims.

To sit at your desk, and spew your condemnations is a little excessive, since nobody can really say how they'd respond in a given situation, until they find themselves in that situation.

-- I do believe that good can come from discussion of accidents, and a lot can be learned from intuitive speculation, rather than just wild accusation, and banter to troll for responses from others. Speculation is good, but facts about incidents are better. If we base our speculations on the facts, then conclusions can be valid. But when people base their speculations on pure assumption, then I don't believe that's constructive at all. I think it's very important to discuss accidents, but only after we know as many FACTS as possible.

Does this make more sense?

What doesn't make sense is that you are actually guilty of doing exactly what you are falsely claiming others did. You went off half cocked with no facts and made them up as you went. Now turn all of this around and look in the mirror when you reread the thread and your posts.

I will make it real easy for you everything was hashed over the first 6 posts of the thread. So if your facts are there they will be in that area...

No one made the accusations as you claim. This just turned into a witch hunt, over a simple question.

 

[TerryInFlorida]

I'm in agreement with several members on this point. I disagree with several others.

Here's the facts: If a participant in a recovery informs others about what happened without first consulting an attorney, he is labeled negatively. Speculation from what little information presented becomes excessive and loses the basis of fact.
If a participant in a recovery doesn't inform others what happened, speculation from even less information presented becomes excessive and loses the basis of fact.

Point being, the official records are available for review (in many instances) upon completion of the investigation. The IUCRR works for caves and the info is available (though not as rapidly as some would like). The problem that I have with critiquing a situation in which you don't KNOW THE FACTS is that your information and opinion are not FACT BASED. Therefore, you lose the benefits of conversation because gain zero information.

How many of you people that have such opinions ever read the actual reports?

Cheers,
Jamie

P.S. I have been guilty of this before, as Terry so keenly pointed out. I know the potential damage that talking out of your arse can do.

You are the one pointing the finger at Kevin. The question was not, no one said he made statements to the press. You are jumping to conclusions and taking what is written out of context. Go back and reread the thread and let us know who pointed the finger at kevin.

You have been guilty of it before and if you can't find something to back up your claims this time it will be a whole bunch of guilty in very little time.

 

[HowardE]

What doesn't make sense is that you are actually guilty of doing exactly what you are falsely claiming others did. You went off half cocked with no facts and made them up as you went. Now turn all of this around and look in the mirror when you reread the thread and your posts.

I will make it real easy for you everything was hashed over the first 6 posts of the thread. So if your facts are there they will be in that area...

No one made the accusations as you claim. This just turned into a witch hunt, over a simple question.

Where do you come from? You think YOU know everything, and you're lecturing me and Jamie about things you know nothing about?

Instead of lecturing me and others about something that you know nothing about... Why don't you go and re-read all 18 of your posts on the board, and see what kind of inflamatory posts you've had.

You accuse Jamie of pointing fingers at Kevin? They are GOOD FRIENDS!

I have known the facts of this story since day one. I did not want to reveal the story myself, as I have had the story told to me by an eyewitness. I did not want to tell anything "third party".

Both Jamie and I were trying to defend a good friend, who hasn't been online much the past few days... gee wonder why. and you were picking apart everything we've said. You haven't had much to say on the board, except about this. Why is that? What's your beef?

 

[Tom Winters]

I didn't want everyone to know that you can actually speak from your arse.

Joseph Pujol, who performed as Le Petomaine, was the highest paid entertainer in his home country at the height of his career.
Now granted that the country was France, so it's no great a wonder that talking through his arse made him rich.
http://www.ljhelms.com/pet/_pujol/thestory/retro.htm

 

[TerryInFlorida]

To howarde:

Rightttt, thats why you aren't coming up with anything to support your claims. :1poke:

Thats Mr. KnowItAll to you!:mooner:
I am merely posting in reply to the two of you jumping to conclusions and creating your own personal witch hunt. Whats my beef, I really don't have one, just pointing out that you guys fabricated almost every negative thing you claimed was said and are using the excuse of having a friends back that no one was attacking. This has really gone beyond Kevin and basically IMHO was only loosely based on him in the first place. The truth came out by Kevins own post and there was a few really important points we all may benefit from out of a really sad tragedy. No one was ever conclusive that he said anything to the press or that if he had it was even slightly wrong.

You guys blew the posts out of proportion by adding your own personal twists to them. Exactly what you are pointing your fingers at these guys and saying they did. I would say I hate to see such blind hypocrisy but the ones that you're pointing your fingers at who were merely asking questions and sharing ideas were not lying through their teeth like you guys. You guys are point blank lying about what these guys have posted and if you think you can prove otherwise, do it. Public discussion 101 - He who makes the claim is responsible for providing the proof or facts to back it. Isn't this the very thing you are so angry about, making claims or statement without facts?

I don't have anything against anyone, just discussing the topic and what you added to it.

By the way, what I was saying is basically this the only ones saying the things that you're saying are you guys and any negative remarks of or about Kevin are originating from you guys solely, a fabrication of your own minds with no basis of fact. Yes, the fingers are coming from you guys left and right. Not wanting to accept responsibility for finger pointing? You sure do use the phrase a lot, as if you aren't the ones doing it the most. See in my case I am pointing my finger at the finger pointers, are you starting to get it yet or are we going to run around in circles all day?

I believe I made my point clear and don't feel like playing the games. So unless you have a brainstorm and feel like fabricating some actual facts, lets just agree to disagree and call it a day.
You bore me:snore:, good day!

 

[HowardE]

Ahem...

I was speaking of a specific incident, I had explicit knowledge of the entire story, before it was all posted on the board.

I was merely giving support to one of the best divers I know, who was being second guessed, and slandered.

In the process, I received several PM's in support of my statements.

I have never claimed to, nor do I know it all.

If you have something specific to say to me... say it in Private, not in the public forum. People don't need to read personal attacks on SB... It's a friendly place.

 

[dherbman]

If you have something specific to say to me... say it in Private, not in the public forum. People don't need to read personal attacks on SB... It's a friendly place.

I don't mind. Work is slow today.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

People don't need to read personal attacks on SB... It's a friendly place.

Has there been a change in the TOS?

 

[adurso]

I don't mind. Work is slow today.

Slow here as well, please carry on...

 

[dlndavid]

I don't mind. Work is slow today.

you calling me a stroke?