To Blue Hole or not Blue Hole...

[DCBC]

Some very valid points but it does not change the fact that while the safety info is exactly correct there are still boats leaving to dive the Blue Hole every week...

I'd suggest to you that the manner in which a dive is conducted by the boat operator (however "safe") cannot account for how a diver will be affected by narcosis. There is not one "expert witness" that in court will side with the operator in case of an accident. Deep diving over 130' requires further training and experience without exception.

If you drive on the wrong side of the road on your way home this evening and are finally stopped in your driveway, I hardly think that a statement to the police that "no one was hurt" will be held to be a reasonable one. Breaking the rules and getting away with it doesn't mean it's morally right or even a smart thing to do from a business perspective.

All it will take is one death and the dive operator and the attending DMs will be eaten alive. I wonder if the DMs doing this dive daily realize that their liability insurance isn't worth anything in the event of an accident. Why? Because it's unsafe practice!

 

[DCBC]

I am no longer a dive operator and I have never operated BH dives, other than technical dives which I assure you were properly conducted. I have another one in a week-or-two. However, there are several operators here who do run these trips, all to basically the same standards, and if I can't dissuade divers I can at least try to make it safer and more comfortable for them.

My apologies, I thought you were an operator. I don't understand what you mean by "if I can't dissuade divers I can at least try to make it safer and more comfortable for them." How do you do this?

In too many cases their training appears to have been seriously deficient. Those are the divers we have to work with.

If the training is deficient, they can either take more training with you, or dive within their abilities (or not dive). I now realize that you are not the charter operator, but certainly they see what you do. If this is the caliber of diver you get, why take them to 140-145'? Does this seem reasonable to you?

Nonetheless, as Gaz says there are many divers making this dive perfectly safely, with no accidents of any sort other than the odd inherent health problem in over eight years. In total an average of getting on for 100 divers from all over Belize doing it each day. Regardless of the principles at stake, the statistics speak for themselves.

As I've mentioned, if an accident happens, it will likely all come crashing down. I can't however feel sorry for any of the DMs or the operator; they know that it's against their agency rules and the guidelines of their liability insurance. Its irresponsibility like this that hurts the industry as a whole.

 

[njcfm]

i'm surprised some of you are willing to drive on public roads with all the risk involved, especially with the exponentially higher mortality rate.

As a diver I'm aware of the risk and I'm willing to take that risk into my own hands along with the hands of my fiancee who is my "buddy"

I expect a DM to have more experience than me doing the dives they are taking me on and for them to pay attention to us incase of an issue, however i don't depend on them for anything while diving.

The dive was very professional and the DMs did an excellent job monitoring the divers, maybe it is my generation that is more willing to take risks and do more adventurous activities. (luckily i'm still under 30yrs old)

you guys can argue this day in and day out, might as well be discussing solid fins vs split fins. It is a matter of opinion, the "training" divers recieve is all about emergency management and how to handle situations. Along with that all of the different levels of certification are simply methods of making money for the organizations, just like anything else.

To those that are interested in doing the dive, I'd suggest to do it, if you don't feel comfortable going to 140ft deep, then let the DMs know that ahead of time and stay within your comfort level with your buddy, if you don't have a buddy team up with a DM or simply skip the dive. The other 2 dives on the trip are terrific and well worth it on their own.

opinions are like as*holes, everyone has one.

 

[TSandM]

Well, at least I have some reasons, and ran through some math as to where my concerns come from. Saying, "I did it and it went fine," is not a very good basis for recommending something to someone else, I don't think.

 

[Downing]

Hey, it was a civil discussion with a lot of valid points and concerns raised and I certainly appreciate that.

 

[DCBC]

As a diver I'm aware of the risk and I'm willing to take that risk into my own hands along with the hands of my fiancee who is my "buddy"

Perhaps you can enlighten me, with less than 50 dives, where did you learn to understand how narcosis will affect you personally at depth? My point is that if you want to jump off a high bridge, that's up to you. If you make a business out of driving people there and grouping them together to jump, that morally wrong in my view.

A dive operator has the moral and legal right not to purposely place the people in his charge in harm's way. In this case, the DMs are operating under the guise of a training standard that is written by an organization and insured by another, who both prohibit them operating in this manner. What do you think the training agency would do to these DMs if this was reported to them?

 

[peterbj7]

My apologies, I thought you were an operator. I don't understand what you mean by "if I can't dissuade divers I can at least try to make it safer and more comfortable for them." How do you do this?

By giving advice such as here, by training in deep(er) diving. I used to be an operator, but never to the BH, and I am still a technical instructor

If the training is deficient, they can either take more training with you, or dive within their abilities (or not dive). I now realize that you are not the charter operator, but certainly they see what you do. If this is the caliber of diver you get, why take them to 140-145'? Does this seem reasonable to you?

I didn't quite say that. I said, or meant to say, that many divers we get here are not very proficient. It's the same at all warm water resort locations. Such people I do strongly recommend NOT to do the BH day without appropriate training beforehand, but I can't stop them.

As I've mentioned, if an accident happens, it will likely all come crashing down. I can't however feel sorry for any of the DMs or the operator; they know that it's against their agency rules and the guidelines of their liability insurance. Its irresponsibility like this that hurts the industry as a whole.

You're being very harsh. Accidents have happened, though AFAIK there hasn't been a fatality caused by diving in at least the last eight years (a few people have keeled over from heart attacks and the like). People have run out of air and have survived. People have bolted to the surface and have survived unscathed. People have done the dive with minimal experience and the expected level of proficiency, and have survived without drama (at least, to them). People have dived with minimal or in some cases no formal dive qualifications, and have survived. Whether I agree with you or not, and I largely do, unsuitable people are going to be taken on that dive and are going to come out the other side. The fact that they do it safely (by which I mean that they survive physically unscathed, though hopefully not emotionally) is testimony to the thoroughness with which these dives are now run and controlled. It wasn't always thus, and I know of at least 6 unrecovered bodies at the bottom of the Hole

Don't get too hung up on "agency" rules. Dive agencies are merely certification bodies which have absolutely no influence here beyond that. And insurance as well - most countries in the world, and Belize is one of them, have no requirement for dive insurance, on the part of the customer, instructor or operator. Operators do have a legal requirement for limited liability insurance, but that's not dive-related and in any case isn't always complied with. In Belize the advice "caveat emptor" really applies, so you choose your dive operator carefully.

Do I sound cynical? No, just pragmatic.

 

[DCBC]

Don't get too hung up on "agency" rules. Dive agencies are merely certification bodies which have absolutely no influence here beyond that. And insurance as well - most countries in the world, and Belize is one of them, have no requirement for dive insurance, on the part of the customer, instructor or operator. Operators do have a legal requirement for limited liability insurance, but that's not dive-related and in any case isn't always complied with. In Belize the advice "caveat emptor" really applies, so you choose your dive operator carefully.

Regardless of how things are done in the country, they have to be done in the Agency's prescribed manner if the DMs and Instructors wish to remain certified. If the Dive Operators have a Training Facility or Dive Shop that is affiliated with any of the major agencies they too have to follow the rules.

If you are suggesting that Belize and "most countries in the world" are backward nations and don't have to conform to a "standard of care," I would have to suggest that you are mistaken. I've operated in several nations and have always maintained "industry standards." It is these standards that provide you and I with the opportunity to certify divers and regardless of where we are, we must conform to these standards.

Now I'm not naive enough to believe that there are not businesses that take short cuts that affect the safety of their customers. As a professional however, I would not be defending people that operate against the safety standards that have been established by the industry and the agencies.

 

[peterbj7]

If you are suggesting that Belize and "most countries in the world" are backward nations and don't have to conform to a "standard of care," I would have to suggest that you are mistaken

I didn't say that and I'm not suggesting it. I mentioned and was referring solely to the need for insurance, which is primarily a US requirement generated by your extremely litigious society. In Britain for example, which operates rigidly-enforced standards that I would say (having dived extensively in both places) exceed those generally found in the USA, there is no legal requirement for insurance. But nor is there in the far east, where diving standards are largely non-existent.

It is a fact that dive businesses often don't observe recognised standards, not to the letter and often not even in spirit. That is across the world, not just in Belize. I have reported to PADI what I regarded as dangerous practices here (in Belize but not locally here in San Pedro), which in one case actually resulted in a fatality, and I know of no case where effective action was taken. We have a barrier reef to traverse before and after a dive - what do you think of a dive operation that three times in one week (twice in one day) has boats that run out of fuel? I take it you understand the significance of the barrier reef?

 

[peterbj7]

Anyway, I'm endorsing a commercial venture here to give free up-market air-conditioned accommodation to people who book a week's diving, and I can assure you that that diving will be with an operator that as well as is possible DOES comply with accepted standards.