Tipping - how much and are we cheap

[neophyte]

Because then the costs would be distributed equally among the customers, rather than tightwads being subsidized by the generous tippers. Also, you would see the full cost upfront and explicit.

That's fair enough. I rather like it the way it is, believing that capitalism works very well and I'm most likely to get the best service when workers have a straightforward monetary incentive to perform exceptionally. I understand what you're saying though, and that is just one more reason to resent those who leave crappy tips.

I just add ~30% to the cost on the menu (between tax and tip) when I'm making my decisions. Of course, I adjust downward if the service is sub-par.

Do you get much poor service in non tipped industries? You would punish poor service by taking your business elsewhere.

Sometimes I do get poor service in non-tipped industries. In my experience it's rarer in those where a tip is expected and being worked for.

Where I get the worst service is where the employee knows that they will not be making any more or less money no matter what they do. Think about your last trip to the DMV.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Maybe in the US... Here in Canada we have a minimum wage... ANYONE here in BC, Canada CAN NOT make under $8.25hr.

Oh man hate to call you out but since you got all holier than thou...

BC minimum wage is $8/hr. [http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/min-wage.htm]
And not all provinces in your beloved Canada have a set minimum wage in Ontario for instance "Liquor Servers" aka Bartenders/Waitresses/Waiters have a lower minimum wage @ $6.75/hr vs the standard $7.75/hr [http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/news/pdf/2003/03-65f.pdf], so it seems some provinces in Canada do see tipping as income and not just a hand out.

And before the flood of flack about how people in 3rd world contries depend on my tips come...

Geez I didn't realized that Canada and the US were 3rd world countries.

Edit: That being said I don't believe government should pay people less in tipping jobs, unless they make tipping the law, so hard working folks don't get screwed because of attitudes like yours.

 

[gonetobaja]

Well here is a biased answer from a dive guide.....

My prices are set up so the person who goes on the tour gets the service and I dont lose money. I take resposibility for tipping all of the workers, cooks, hotels, and resturants because I know that If I leave it up to my customers than the tipping will be huge on one trip and nothing on the next. Its not because of different service but because as we see in this thread people have different opinions about tipping.

I know when I go into town that I can depend on all of my connections to hook me up with the services I need. As a returning and consistent guide I need them to survive. The customers can leave and never return, they dont have to worry about if they could have possibly made any one mad. Some feel that if you are in the "Service Industry" than you should be treated like crap and you are expected to perform a level of service that "they" expect. I guess if we would do away with tips than you can also expect to lower the amount of "friendly" service you would expect.

Some expect to not tip, they feel they have paid for a service. A two tank dive for instance. In my case its a 5 day trip. If I apply that same way of thinking I could say that I am providing just the boat and a ride. If you need help changing your tank, loading your gear(90% of people carry too much s$#T),getting your weight belt off of the bottom after you goofed it and dropped it at the back of the boat. Helping on with your tank, pointing out some cool stuff, etc. than you must pay extra. I could have a list on the side of my boat.

Mask defog.....2.00 per use
extra weight.....1.00per pound
loading your gear....1.00 per pound
listening to your last dive story.....15,000.00 per story
having to hear how the vis was 300 ft on your last vacation......20,000.00 per story
Having to take care of YOUR overboyant partner for 4 dives....20 per dive
Telling you quietly that your 1st stage is on backwards.....100

I guess that this rant list of mine could get pretty big.

My point is that people need to know that there is alot more to taking a group out on a dive trip than meets the eye. What you expect to give as service is going to be different for every person. some will need no help, some need alot. If you dont tip the crew or divemaster or guide than you are screwing them. They have no idea what type of person you are and what your needs are untill you show up on the back of the boat. Then they have to adapt and provide you with the custom service that the particular person may need. your mom may need different attention than the 23 year old son. Its that custom service that you pay your tip for.

that being said when I ran fishing charters I got bigger tips, with freediving, and scuba charters they are less. :shakehead

As a guide, the extra service I provide proves by my actions that I give a s#@t and I want to make the experience better for you, your tip is you saying thankyou.

You dont have to say thank you in the world, its just a nice thing to do.

Advice for the non tippers of the world.....

Dont go to the same place twice:mooner:

:11:

 

[dannobee]

Where I get the worst service is where the employee knows that they will not be making any more or less money no matter what they do. Think about your last trip to the DMV.

Personally, where I've gotten the worst service is going into a restaurant with a group size large enough to get the tip included in the bill (you know, over 6 people, 18% gratuity added or something similar). THEN the service has been REALLY bad, with the waiter/waitress never filling glasses, bringing meals cold and late, etc, and generally ignoring their customers, knowing that the tip is guaranteed.

When I go on vacation I normally stuff a couple of $20's in the jar for the boat crew (two tank dive).

 

[neophyte]

No I don't let them know... For that matter I've never heard someone say "I am going to be tipping at the end"

Of course you've never heard that. It is customary and understood implicitly. You call your belief about tipping "different". You understand that expecting a tip is what the person serving you is doing.

"The expect that ..." You see I believe people should only EXPECT nothing. Nothing is sure in this world anymore. I am ripping off these people? Come on get real... It is their JOB! I don't take change out of their pockets.

That's all well and good to say here, and have them find out after the fact. If you truly want someone to not expect something, let them know what not to expect.

You and your "letting them know beforehand" Jesus man... A Tip is a way of saying Thank You. So you saying that if they knew I wasn't going to tip that the said person could honestly slack off at his/her job? In the end he/she is PAID to do said job.

"Oh Hi! I am Byron and tonight Sir I won't be tipping you no matter what you do" Yes lets think now for a minute... Would my service be up to par? No because the person would be throwing a tantrum because my "Thank You" isn't enough. What can I only truely show Thanks with money?

See, you know that the service wouldn't be up to par if you did that. You understand that you're letting them believe something that YOU KNOW ISN'T THE CASE to get them to give you more than they would if you were honest with them. How is that not conning them?

I'm not saying the person could slack off at their job exactly, of course they'd still have to perform the bare minimum. But do I think it'd be fine for them to stop right there at the bare minimum and do nothing further to improve your experience? Of course.

Conning no? I just have a different belief when it comes to tipping.

You have a different belief, but you're unwilling to pay for it. You expect other people to pay for it. That's not called being noble, principled, having the courage of your convictions or anything else warm and fuzzy. That's called expecting something for nothing. That's called a handout.

You obviously feel strongly about this, as do I. If you truly believe that you are right and the situation should change stand up in the bright light of day and do what you can to make that change. I would sincerely wish you the very best. I love to see someone fighting the good fight.

Until that time be honest with yourself (if not those around you) and admit that you are sneakily taking advantage of others.

 

[ReefHound]

I just add ~30% to the cost on the menu (between tax and tip) when I'm making my decisions. Of course, I adjust downward if the service is sub-par.

Sometimes I do get poor service in non-tipped industries. In my experience it's rarer in those where a tip is expected and being worked for.

Where I get the worst service is where the employee knows that they will not be making any more or less money no matter what they do. Think about your last trip to the DMV.

True, we could just do the back end math but then why do places like to advertise the base price so much? It's just $500 for this trip, that's 10 dives for only $50 a dive, they might say. Why not add the $100 tip and advertise that tally to you? Because they know psychologically it works. Don't you ever get tired of a $15 meal costing you $25 when it's all said and done?

As for service, not fair to compare govt. work with private sector. Govt jobs are protected by civil service and supervisors cannot reward or punish employee behaviour. Same applies to union work.

Think about your last trip to the McD's drive thru. They always seem to greet me cordially, take my order, prepare it quickly and accurately, and thank me for coming. Not for a tip but because their employer tells them that they WILL provide good customer service or they WILL be doing something else real soon.

 

[Codyjp]

No I don't let them know... For that matter I've never heard someone say "I am going to be tipping at the end"



"The expect that ..." You see I believe people should only EXPECT nothing. Nothing is sure in this world anymore. I am ripping off these people? Come on get real... It is their JOB! I don't take change out of their pockets.

You and your "letting them know beforehand" Jesus man... A Tip is a way of saying Thank You. So you saying that if they knew I wasn't going to tip that the said person could honestly slack off at his/her job? In the end he/she is PAID to do said job.



"Oh Hi! I am Byron and tonight Sir I won't be tipping you no matter what you do" Yes lets think now for a minute... Would my service be up to par? No because the person would be throwing a tantrum because my "Thank You" isn't enough. What can I only truely show Thanks with money?

Conning no? I just have a different belief when it comes to tipping.

And before the flood of flack about how people in 3rd world contries depend on my tips come... I don't travel outside of Canada. Don't really give a damn that somewhere in the world that someone is only making 3 rubies a day making a shirt... Doesn't effect me in my daily life.

come to the US and eat at the same resturant twice you will be getting a nice yummy order of the cook's spit. ENJOY!

 

[Codyjp]

on another note, if you eat in Germany where tipping isn't common the service is piss poor at best. I would be happier getting my own food out of the kitchen. I would be more than happy to tip for good service.

you pay for what you get;

good service=good tip
bad service= bad tip

it really is simple.

 

[neophyte]

You are right that's it's not fair comparing gov't work to private sector, but the analogy was close enough for government work, as they say.

I was using the most extreme case to make my point, but the included gratuity example cited above by dannobee probably would've been more accurate.

As far as a fast food drive-through goes, I can't agree that they "always seem to greet me cordially, take my order, prepare it quickly and accurately, and thank me for coming". Sometimes they do just that. Sometimes they do some of those things and every now and then they do none of them.

I've found that the ratio of performing as well as you described to performing as poorly as possible is better at establishments where the server is working for a tip. I also like the fact that I'm able to express my displeasure by leaving a very small tip (never none, lest they think I've just forgotten or something) in situations where the service didn't live up to my expectations without being awful enough to warrant a complaint to someone higher up. The average fast food employee (and I know because I spent a little while as one in high school) couldn't care less if a particular customer comes back. Yes, there are "mystery shopper" programs and incentives offered to managers for good performance, but the turnover rate of employees is such that it really only matters so much.

Overall, I understand what you're saying, as you do me. We simply have an honest difference of opinion. I believe that everyone gets better service, and service sector employees make more money with the way things stand than if an 18% gratuity were included in all prices listed in a menu (for example). I could be wrong.

 

[ReefHound]

To be honest, my real gripe isn't about tipping, but tipping on a percentage basis. I see no reason why two servers should be rewarded differently depending on whether I ordered the $25 lobster plate or the $12 fish plate. I prefer a more flat tip approach and typically tip $10 per tank, whether the boat ride costs $50 or $200.