Time to open the Solo Forum?

[The Chairman]

NetDoc is an instructor, incredibly lucid, always right and owner to Scuba Board,

There, I fixed it for you.

Even when people post to you, they're indirectly talking to other people.

It depends. If I am having a 'discussion' with a POV (Point Of View) Warrior, then I am never talking to them and am only talking to the others who will come read the thread. Every comedian needs a straight man, every gangster a fall guy and every Super Hero a villain. No matter how intense the conversation may be, I have little chance of changing their mind, so I type for the audience. I'm not always successful, but on the interwebs the most reasonable person wins in the long run. Ergo, I want to be seen as a reasonable person.

 

[Ana]

And here we go,

There's a diver that wants to solo dive. That was among the conclusions said diver arrived after reading the responses to his thread. Isn't that magnificent?

Now see how opening the board immediately produced results, now let's just make sure the room doesn't screw up, after all

"You have an opportunity here to do it right"

I'm guessing the "You" refers to the Solo Forum, maybe is Net Doc himself that has to step up, you (we?) may not be aware but there are good smart divers out there waiting to be gently held by their delicately gloved hands.

So if I read correctly, there's a group of divers that were brain washed into dismissing the idea of solo diving. I could go with that premise, but it contradicts what I see and what most divers see, which is that instructors in general pump out divers like sausages with mostly mediocre skills.
Ssoooo how come it is so difficult to stop divers from moving their hands but so easy to insert an intangible thought that has a whole lot to do with concern (if I say fear the whole thread goes to $it), with authority, and with the "safety in numbers" concept. This instructors must be something amazing, they should add "quit smoking" to the classes, I'll be happy to take bets on the result.

For a while now I've seen 2 main groups among the people that take diving: A group that has to "overcome" water splashing in their face, and the other group that just needs to figure the mechanics and/or physics behind diving. From there it branches out into a million groups, but something stays pretty much constant, some people like or need to be within the lines and others don't even see the lines.

A diver may not have the means to go on its own, logistics for solo diving can be challenging depending on the individual circumstances but the desire is either there or not. Just say NO works with solo diving as well as it does with sex and drugs.

The "solo divers forum" was not much different than the actual activity, in plain sight for anyone who wanted to see it. The only requirement was to knock at the door. When I learned of the board and signed as a user I looked around and saw many rooms, no one gave me the tour, I just looked around and either walked in or knocked at the doors that called my attention.

So maybe I have the wrong approach, but I don't believe in teaching adults, I believe in adults learning. You decide what type of diving you want to make and you figure how to accomplish it, maybe practice on your own, or a refresher in physics, or look to see how others do it, or take formal training, I figure it depends on what it is. To me it makes sense to take a class in photography, when I hear of F stops my mind goes to the gutter, but it sure is a HUGE irony to take a solo class, I know is the way to go these days, but it is just too funny... does the instructor stay topside while the student dives? or does the student pretends to not see the instructor?

The first step a diver should take is to look in the mirror and look at the only person responsible for her/his actions, until this step is not completed it is just an exercise in "mother may I".

I think it is great that divers come to SB and exchange ideas, ask how do you approach this or that, compare prices, describe their dives or even criticize instructors or charters. However I hate it when I read criticism of other divers. Oh one is not allow to question anyone who calls off a dive but is freaking open season when a diver decides to dive his own way.
Damm it stop that! mind your own business and stop telling people that you know better,
...and for the people asking permission to dive, stop that too! look it up yourself. Every time you want to ask permission, just engage your brain and figure it out, really is not rocket surgery. Find out the facts and then figure how they apply to you.

oh and it is better not to think that anyone owes you... specially a bunch of names on a board in the internet.

 

[Z Gear]

Z-gear:

Often in online forum discussions, unlike 'real world' discussions, there are some major different dynamics in play.

1.) Newcomers walk up & join discussions with strangers. A Sociologist could have a field day with real world cultural norms for small group formation & interaction that get ignored in online discussions.

2.) Often both the topic & the other participants have back stories the newcomer doesn't know. Some folks have already debated the topic on other threads, and pick up where they left off. You have no way to know that back story.

3.) We can't read each other's tone & body language.

4.) We come from different regions & local cultures. We also come from very different backgrounds; Jim Lapenta is an instructor, who thinks about the safety of his students. NetDoc is an instructor and owner to Scuba Board, so he 'represents SB' to some extent. I'm just a rec. diver who likes doing some solo diving and participating in some interesting discussions.

5.) In public online discussions, we're aware we have an audience and often try to market our point-of-view persuasively, indirectly to any section of the audience who might be on the fence, and of course to 'preach to the choir' of those who agree with us. And discredit our opponents' views. Even when people post to you, they're indirectly talking to other people.

Solo adds its own baggage.

1.) Despite some people's assertion of the superior enjoyment of buddy and disturbing risk of solo diving, it obviously appeals to many people.

2.) There's fear people not yet fit for it will get into it, and get themselves killed. Bad for them, their families, dive op.s providing services and the hobby. So if solo diving catches on more, more people will get killed.

3.) Some people seem to have some instinctive negative reaction to it. Even if you provide reasonable assurance that a given solo diver's safety profile for a dive is well within acceptable standards, they're not going to like it. Not just not prefer it for themselves; these people dislike solo diving. It's weird, but there it is.

4.) Many scuba specialties are proudly advocated by mainstream agencies; you 'ought to' take AOW, Rescue, UW Navigation, etc... Solo not so much. I suspect SDI saw that people were going to do it anyway, and decided that a good training program might improve the practice & safety, make some money and distinguish the company. That created some competitive pressure on PADI, since people who normally take PADI courses would jump ship to take SDI Solo (which I did). PADI tried to 'have their cake and eat it, too,' with the Self-Reliant Diver course. They don't even own the name solo! And I haven't seen the course marketed in plain view of their web site. It's like the unwanted step-child.

5.) Given the biases against soloing, some perceive it as an irrationally discriminated against minority, a wrongful (or at least silly) impingement upon individual liberty, and resist this perceived oppression.

Into all this backstory, fairly new divers walk into a forum section, and ask about solo diving.

Richard,

Thanks for taking time to put this together. I do appreciate a good discussion and points that are presented as you have. I am a reasonable person, I would always consider and acknowledge any new information which I find logical.

I understand your point about the back story premise. But lets not provide a crutch for those who can not take responsibility on how they communicate with others on the forum. I am trying to raise the standards on how one treats others when asking a question, its really quite simple you have demonstrated yourself that you can have a discussion without resorting to being rude or disrespectful. Others might have to see this and learn something.
If I don't agree on a certain point it doesn't mean you are bad and I am good, it just means that "we agree to disagree".

As far as additional training I was interested in taking the stress and rescue course at my LDS. You mention the SDI solo course on the previous forum and you gave my some good advice, I did appreciate.

 

[drrich2]

Ssoooo how come it is so difficult to stop divers from moving their hands but so easy to insert an intangible thought that has a whole lot to do with concern (if I say fear the whole thread goes to $it), with authority, and with the "safety in numbers" concept. This instructors must be something amazing, they should add "quit smoking" to the classes, I'll be happy to take bets on the result.

I see your point, but if you get to people early in development, and try to instill a fear that doesn't keep them from something they're already wanting to do, sometimes it's not all that hard.

Ask a reptile aficionado about snake phobias. Most snakes are non-venomous. Most that are aren't looking for trouble, and pose little danger for most people in developed societies. But many people have been raised to fear them, and often cultivate a hatred of them. Try introducing a more rationale, nuanced view, and you run into the pride some people have of fearing & hating snakes.

I'm not saying everybody needs a pet snake. But screaming 'like a girl' and fleeing in terror because one's on the ground 10 feet from you is a bit much. Yet some people are so terrified their own over-reaction is more dangerous than the snake!

How easy is it to teach a child to be racist? How hard is it to reverse that bigoted worldview at a later date?

While neither example is a very close comparator to the cultural bias against solo diving in the recreational dive industry, at least according to many of us, either goes to show people in authority (e.g.: parents) can instill fear and loathing early in development that tends to persist.

Much of my wife's anti-solo viewpoint comes from that 'buddy diving indoctrination' - even though I don't remember our instructor harping on it that much.

Richard.

 

[Z Gear]

And here we go,

There's a diver that wants to solo dive. That was among the conclusions said diver arrived after reading the responses to his thread. Isn't that magnificent?

Now see how opening the board immediately produced results, now let's just make sure the room doesn't screw up, after all

"You have an opportunity here to do it right"

I'm guessing the "You" refers to the Solo Forum, maybe is Net Doc himself that has to step up, you (we?) may not be aware but there are good smart divers out there waiting to be gently held by their delicately gloved hands.

So if I read correctly, there's a group of divers that were brain washed into dismissing the idea of solo diving. I could go with that premise, but it contradicts what I see and what most divers see, which is that instructors in general pump out divers like sausages with mostly mediocre skills.
Ssoooo how come it is so difficult to stop divers from moving their hands but so easy to insert an intangible thought that has a whole lot to do with concern (if I say fear the whole thread goes to $it), with authority, and with the "safety in numbers" concept. This instructors must be something amazing, they should add "quit smoking" to the classes, I'll be happy to take bets on the result.

For a while now I've seen 2 main groups among the people that take diving: A group that has to "overcome" water splashing in their face, and the other group that just needs to figure the mechanics and/or physics behind diving. From there it branches out into a million groups, but something stays pretty much constant, some people like or need to be within the lines and others don't even see the lines.

A diver may not have the means to go on its own, logistics for solo diving can be challenging depending on the individual circumstances but the desire is either there or not. Just say NO works with solo diving as well as it does with sex and drugs.

The "solo divers forum" was not much different than the actual activity, in plain sight for anyone who wanted to see it. The only requirement was to knock at the door. When I learned of the board and signed as a user I looked around and saw many rooms, no one gave me the tour, I just looked around and either walked in or knocked at the doors that called my attention.

So maybe I have the wrong approach, but I don't believe in teaching adults, I believe in adults learning. You decide what type of diving you want to make and you figure how to accomplish it, maybe practice on your own, or a refresher in physics, or look to see how others do it, or take formal training, I figure it depends on what it is. To me it makes sense to take a class in photography, when I hear of F stops my mind goes to the gutter, but it sure is a HUGE irony to take a solo class, I know is the way to go these days, but it is just too funny... does the instructor stay topside while the student dives? or does the student pretends to not see the instructor?

The first step a diver should take is to look in the mirror and look at the only person responsible for her/his actions, until this step is not completed it is just an exercise in "mother may I".

I think it is great that divers come to SB and exchange ideas, ask how do you approach this or that, compare prices, describe their dives or even criticize instructors or charters. However I hate it when I read criticism of other divers. Oh one is not allow to question anyone who calls off a dive but is freaking open season when a diver decides to dive his own way.
Damm it stop that! mind your own business and stop telling people that you know better,
...and for the people asking permission to dive, stop that too! look it up yourself. Every time you want to ask permission, just engage your brain and figure it out, really is not rocket surgery. Find out the facts and then figure how they apply to you.

oh and it is better not to think that anyone owes you... specially a bunch of names on a board in the internet.

I have edited my original post to you. I have determined that the best approach to resolving your questions is to answer them directly so if you would like to ask me something go ahead, I am listening. There is nothing to fear, I won't bite!

PS: nobody owes me anything. Showing respect towards others is just the right thing to do. Telling people to stop this and stop that, sounds like you must have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I will assume this is the case.

 

[drrich2]

There's a theme that comes up time & again in solo discussions. That of asking others' input about 'standards of readiness' for solo diving, or discussing one's own readiness, and to a lesser extent whether one needs to take a course.

If someone decides to get into penetration diving, especially cave diving, it's condemned as foolhardy unless and until seeking formal instruction coupled with demonstrating one's competence to an objective 3rd party professional (instructor) culminating in a certification. I figure technical diving past mild 'stretching rec. limits a bit' deco. would be seen much the same way.

But where solo diving is concerned, if a prospective candidate solicits the advice of others as to their perceptions of his readiness, if only to inform making his own decision, that diver is apt to be written as not yet ready because 'only he can know, and he does not know.'

I'm not saying diving solo without doing a solo course makes you a fool. Or that solo diving is on par with cave diving in terms of dangerousness. Not the same thing. But I believe I can draw a sufficient if tenuous parallel to make the point that soliciting others' feedback as part of your preparation is wise, not foolish, and does not unilaterally indicate you are not ready.

My 2 cents.

Richard.

 

[Ana]

Your posts just happen to be the current ones, you have been here before, not you personally... your ideas.

So far based on what I've read there's no conversation between us, there's nothing in common.

 

[uncfnp]

Z Gear. Just a little FYI. There are different rules for different forums. Basic and New Divers is a 'flame free zone." Specifically...

"Forum: Basic Scuba Discussions

Have a Scuba related question? Get a Scuba related answer here.
Please note: This forum has special rules. This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed. This forum is not open for threads offering goods or services."



So, if you are posting in this area and feel another poster is out of line, you can report that post to a moderator for consideration.

--------------------

The more advanced forums have a different approach. From the sticky on the advanced forum...



"*Please Read* Special Forum Rules / Terms of Service

Advanced Scuba Discussions - A forum dedicated to discussing the transitional process of migrating from the traditional recreational divng envelope into more advanced areas such as advanced nitrox and trimix diving, decompression diving, cave diving and wreck penetration diving, blackwater diving, etc. This forum isn't a place to discuss technical diving per se - that's what our technical diving forums are for - but rather to discuss those baby steps to becoming a true advanced diver who's ready to step into tech.

Special rules: Diving beyond the recreational realm is dangerous unless done with meticulous attention to detail, safety protocols and procedures. Failure to comply can result in serious injury or death. Therefore, divers who participate in these activities are brutal in their honesty and merciless in their criticism of their own and each others' performance. A large part of the evolution from the strictly recreational diver to the tech-rec and then technical diver is the development of this safety-critical mindset, and the ability to honestly evaluate ideas, including shortcomings. In this forum you can expect to get not only more advanced information than in our strictly recreational forums, but also more critical and direct answers, so a little 'thicker skin' is required here, just as it is in these more advanced types of diving. If someone says 'that's a stupid idea' it's most likely a stupid idea, not an attack on the poster.

Name calling is still prohibited here, however, and those who are accustomed to saying 'you're a moron' in other internet forums are cautioned that such statements will earn a quick vacation from this one.

Rick"


​

So on SB, if you want to swim with the big boys .... well, you know the saying.

 

[Z Gear]

Your posts just happen to be the current ones, you have been here before, not you personally... your ideas.

So far based on what I've read there's no conversation between us, there's nothing in common.

Understood

 

[Hawkwood]

uncfnp reminded you all about the specials rules regarding "Basic" and "Advanced".

Now might be the time to remind you all about the special rules for the "Solo Divers" Forum that you will find at the very top of the page:

You have entered the Solo Divers forum.This forum is intended to discuss the limits, skills and techniques related to solo diving and not to debate its relative merits. This is a "No Troll Zone" and offenders will be blocked from participating in the forum.